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trancaholic
Danish Prophet of Doom
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Aalborg
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| quote: | Originally posted by mps242
You can only make that statement if you completely ignore Bush's speech to the UN and everything that the Administration was saying before the war. They sold us on WMD, but they were ALWAYS talking about what a brutal dictator Saddam was...
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And that invalidates my argument in what way? Did Bush not lie to the UN? Did he not lie in order to get to go to war with Iraq? Was there any threat - *at all* - from Iraq?
Assume that I were a prosecutor in a murder case. I paint a horrific picture of the defendant, while arguing to the jury that the he has commited murder. The defendant ends up in the chair, and afterwards I tell everybody that I lied and fabricated evidence. But the guy was a bastard so you should all wish for me to be prosecutor again some time, right? See the analogy?
| quote: | Originally posted by mps242
Really? Then where are the French and German troops? Why was there such a big fuss when contracts were going to be awarded to contributing nations?
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The Danes are there (and contributed to the war), likewise for Poland, Spain, Italy, Britain, Bulgaria, Norway and possibly more. Focusing on Germany and France only is flawed argumentation IMO.
France and Germany have both helped clean up your mess in Afghanistan, though. Apparently some Americans have forgotten this fact far quicker than Europeans - presumable - forgot the help from the US in WW2.
| quote: | Originally posted by mps242
Gosh, thanks Europe for all those rebuilding funds, it certainly puts the US contribution to shame... 
Shit, Canada has contributed more in terms of troops and funds to Afghanistan than most of Europe.
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This was debated in another thread. St. Andrew and Renegade both provided statistics that *did* put the US to shame when it came to altruistic contributions.
| quote: | Originally posted by mps242
The way things actually work:
Europeans find themselves with a mess on their hands that they can't deal with, so they call the US to bomb the shit out of the problem and put our troops lives on the line. Of course, Europe never thinks it's appropriate to act in the fact of ethnic cleansing or genocide unless it threatens to spill over into their own country.
Over the next several decades, we're forced to babysit the problem with US troops, and diplomcay while we have to deal with Eurotards (I mean far-leftists, the US equivalent are Amerotards) protesting the presence of US troops. Oh, and if they've stopped protesting our presense they then decide to complain that the US didn't start bombing soon enough. Then the US gets to foot the bill for rebuilding Europe in exchange for a few lousy bases and having our soldiers gravestones vandalized. Oh, and when Europeans do decide to contribute peacekeepers, they're far too concerned about keeping their uniforms clean to actually do anything to prevent ethnic strife and murders when chaos breaks out right next to their base.
I think that pretty much sums up that past century of American/European relations.
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I assume that you are refering to WW2. First let me remind you that non-Americans actually were killed in that war too. In fact quite a lot of Brits were killed.
It is true that the US set an outstanding example in helping Europe out after the war. I wont belittle that, but I do want you to consider two things:
- Did the US keep bases there only for altruistic reasons, or did the "War on Communism" influence this decision as well?
- Do the fact that your ancestors did a great and noble deed justify any cause of action on your behalf?
| quote: | Originally posted by mps242
Oh yeah, I forgot... When NATO invokes article 5 only Canada and the UK seem to actually be willing to put their money where their mouth is and stand up to help their "ally and friend."
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See my answers above. You really need to investigate before coming up with BS such as this.
| quote: | Originally posted by mps242
Yes Bush has fucked up, but no we can't just leave Iraq today. And no... Europeans pulling out of Iraq and refusing to assist in stabilizing the country is not a principled, moral, fair, or intelligent attitude... Perhaps if Europeans would admit that their current position is just as wrong as Bushes position was a year ago, you'd find more Americans open to European criticism. |
Have I asked you to leave Iraq? I invite you to find any post of mine where I condone withdrawal by any country. I personally find it disgusting when I see foolish peace protesters demonstrating for governments to withdraw troops.
As far as I can see, this conflict has, whether it was intended or not, evolved into a battle between liberal democracy and religious fundamentalism. Bush has forced everyone to pick a side ("with us or against us"). Just because I am on the side of democracy, I can still loathe him for bringing about this state of affair. Can't I?
Finally, I think it is very suiting for a US-barbarian such as you, to defend your flawed administration, not by arguments, but by an attack on Europeans and their standards. Trying to clean oneself with the dirts of others rarely is a yielding strategy.
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 Apr-15-2004 15:14 
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occrider
Traveladdict
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
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Apr-15-2004 15:22 
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict
Registered: Feb 2003
Location:
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| quote: | Mohammed Ismail Agha, 15, who until last week was held at the US military base in Guantanamo Bay, said that he was treated very well and particularly enjoyed learning to speak English. His words will disappoint critics of the US policy of detaining "illegal combatants" in south-east Cuba indefinitely and without trial.
In a first interview with any of the three juveniles held by the US at Guantanamo Bay base, Mohammed said: "They gave me a good time in Cuba. They were very nice to me, giving me English lessons."
Mohammed, an unemployed Afghan farmer, found the surroundings in Cuba at first baffling. After he settled in, however, he was left to enjoy stimulating school work, good food and prayer.
"At first I was unhappy . . . For two or three days [after I arrived in Cuba] I was confused but later the Americans were so nice to me. They gave me good food with fruit and water for ablutions and prayer," he said yesterday in Naw Zad, a remote market town in southern Afghanistan close to his home village and 300 miles south-west of Kabul, the capital.
He said that the American soldiers taught him and his fellow child captives - aged 15 and 13 - to write and speak a little English. They supplied them with books in their native Pashto language. When the three boys left last week for Afghanistan, the soldiers looking after them gave them a send-off dinner and urged them to continue their studies.
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Hell, he probably never had it so good. Before you know it there will be people lined up to get IN to Guantanamo Bay because the conditions are so much better than their native countries.
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Apr-15-2004 15:29
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NYCTrancefan
Destination Everywhere!
Registered: Jul 2003
Location: New York City in a Café del Mar mood
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Apr-15-2004 15:29
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