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| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
And this argument means what exactly?
First of all, this addresses absolutely nothing in my original post. I realize you may be too "busy" to address it "point by point", but the fact is that you have not addressed a single one of the points I expressed. You merely came up with a straw-man argument deploring sentiment that's vaguely similar to my point of view.
In fact, it's not just a straw-man argument, it makes use of whole host of fallacious logic, only 3 types of which I'm going to bother to discuss:
1. The "False Dichotomy" or "Black and White" fallacy. Basically this term refers to an instance of faulty logic which claims "P can only be A or B, and it is not B, so it must be A." The logic is considered fallacious when it ignores a third option, C. In your case, your claim is that Hamas terrorists can only fight either with advanced heavy weapons or with traditional means of terrorism. But you ignore the third option, which is that they don't have to kill anyone. Many nations have been brutally conquered and oppressed to a far greater extent of magnitude than Palestine, and they don't systematically kill civilians in order to get "their" land back. |
The IDF doesnt have to KILL anyone either but they do way more than hamas has done.
Althiough i do not agree with the inocents that are killed in hams organized suicide attacks, you cannot blame them for popping out of no where becuase palestinians inheently want a group that will kiill all the jews and destroy israel. This organization germinated two decades after occupation. Frustration anger and humiliation caused by Israel's agressive tactics is a major factor in the birth of vengence-seeking groups.
If there was no revenge to take, these organizations wouldnt be formed.
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2. Attacking the person, or ad hominem tu quoque. A term used to refer to mounting an argument against a person by claiming that they don't "practice what they preach." The claim here is that we should not deplore Hamas terrorists because the IDF has committed similar acts. This fallacy is particularly disturbing in this instance, because it comes from the same people who insist that Israel should withdraw from occupied territory and withdraw IDF forces despite the ongoing threat of Palestinian violence. So in essence, you say that Israel should practice what it preaches, but Palestine does not have to. |
Palestine CANNOT collectively practice disengagement of violence becuase the PA authority does not have the resources to control these millions of people. They are essentially an organization without a properly organizeed defense and policing squad that can help put order into the angry population. Not only has israel destroyed the infrastructure of this policing mechanism that was actually working before the intifada, but have also strengthened the loyalty of many palestinians for HAmas, a mob like organization that has just as much, if not more influence on the populace than the PA.
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Over the past 18 months, Israel has systematically attacked all the facilities of the Palestinian Authority, including police stations, prisons and intelligence headquarters, and killed and assassinated many Palestinian security officers. Hence while crippling and killing the Palestinian security forces, Israel makes the ludicrous demand that these same forces go out and work on Israel's behalf. |
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In this case, I also call it the Ostrich argument. Why do I call it the Ostrich argument? Because it bears a remarkable likeness to burying your head in the ground and just ignoring whatever you don't want to see as if it somehow isn't there. Turning a blind eye to the nationwide glorification of martyrdom, the hate textbooks, the financial incentives to families of suicide bombers, as if it all has no relevance to the issue and that the terrorists only do what they do because they "have" to. |
This also applies to the pro-israeli rhetoric that has been spewed countless times. The only thing they percieve and see is "TERRORISM". Not even delving into the cause or formation of reasons behind it in a way has given them this ostrich fallacy. The number of factors going against israel as a collective organized and institutionalized nation is far more influencial than the unorganized, corrupt and de-centralized power that the palestinians have been affected by. Not only do they physically suffer by the occupiers, they also suffer becuase the occupiers blame an authority that hardly has control over these people for the acts of a few brainwashed and demoralized individuals. Double trouble for the pals.
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3. The Straw Man. In case there is anyone on the planet who doesn't know what a straw man is yet, it's a form of "logic" where you take someone's argument, construct a considerably weaker argument out of it (the "straw man"), and then attack the weak form of the argument. Suffice it to say that nobody here really cares about the means in which Hamas kills Israeli civilians, or whether they do it with suicide bombers or heavy weapons. The problem here is that they are killing civilians, not just as collateral damage but as deliberate targets. This IS terrorism, and it bears little to no resemblance to counterterrorist acts by the IDF which take out a few civilian casualties. It's easy to be a hippie and cry over the loss of life, but it's different when you live out there and know that somebody's going to die anyway. |
"This IS terrorism, and it bears little to no resemblance to counterterrorist acts by the IDF which take out a few civilian casualties."!!!!!!!!!
I love how you label the violent actions of the IDF as counter-terror, while they have been proven to kill and TARGET innocents numerous times. Ive proven it a dozen times in the political forums.
And lets not forget the long thread on the meaning of terrorism that you and george smiley were arguing over. It was agreed upon that state terror is one type of terror that falls under the umbrella of terrorism as a whole. The actions of ISrael are even more terroristic than the pathetic few who have killed but 1/4th of israeli innocents.
"few casualties" haahhahahhhahah
heres a great analysis at how the IDF REALLY serves.
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For immediate release
Date: November 3, 2000
Contact: John Heffernan, Media and Public Affairs Coordinator
W) [617] 695-0041, ext. 220 H) [617] 623-4249
Email: [email protected][/email]
Web site: www.phrusa.org
Barbara Ayotte, Director of Communications
W) [617] 695-0041, ext. 210
Email: [email][email protected]
Update and Commentary
November 22, 2000
The Physicians for Human Rights report is based solely on the events and dynamics investigated by our team at the time of their investigation (October 20-27, 2000). We recognize that violence committed by both sides of the conflict has escalated since our team was in the region. We condemn attacks on children by both sides, as well as putting children in the front lines, bombings by both sides, and attacks on civilians by both sides. The focus of this medical and scientific investigation was limited to the specific issues of excessive and inappropriate use of force, types of ammunitions used, and violations of medical neutrality in the context of the current wave of violence in the region. We believe that the underlying causes of violence, the occupation, and questions of implementation of peace accords are issues that other groups are better able to address.
At the time we conducted our investigation, we recognized that Palestinians were clearly firing at Israeli soldiers and settlers, including children, in situations that do not involve self-defense. These actions are human rights violations. In our report, we call on the Palestinian Authority to prevent such acts of violence and hold accountable the individuals who have committed these acts. PHR also understands that a stone may be a lethal weapon under specific circumstances, but not all instances of stone throwing place soldiers in jeopardy.
Our conclusions regarding the IDF's inappropriate and excessive use of force remain valid and are not based on any single finding, but rather the totality of the evidence we collected: the high number of gunshots to the head; the volume of serious, disabling thigh injuries; the inappropriate firing of rubber bullets and rubber-coated steel bullets at close range; and the high proportion of Palestinian injuries and deaths. In our analysis, we found that the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing.
After interviewing senior IDF personnel, we were concerned that the IDF has either violated its own previously published rules of engagement, which we have seen, or has issued new, less restrictive rules, which it refuses to reveal.
PHR believes that our findings, based on patterns of injuries and ammunition studied, especially in regard to the use of lethal force by the Israel Defense Force (IDF), clearly suggest that civilians not posing life-threatening danger in the territories were being disproportionately shot at by IDF in a manner that violates the standards for the use of proportional force outlined in the Geneva Conventions and within international human rights and humanitarian agreements to which Israel is party.
We have received some inquiries about our methodology for reviewing hospital records. The PHR team had free access to all patients in hospitals it visited in the Palestinian territories This degree of access allowed team members to randomly interview the patient population and examine their hospital records, including operating room reports and X-ray films for each case it reviewed. The hospital records were by and large handwritten and were consistent with ordinary documents that doctors in these hospitals maintain on a daily basis. They coincided with testimonies collected from patients. The team found no visible evidence of tampering or forgery in the materials it reviewed.
Another major concern is reports of Palestinian misuse of ambulances. During the PHR team's visit to the Middle East, it did not receive specific allegations regarding Palestinian misuse of ambulances, in violation of medical neutrality. If allegations about attacks on Israeli ambulances and misuse of Palestinian ambulances are true, we will condemn these acts. We are currently researching these allegations further and will report our findings on our website as soon as our inquiry is completed.
We did request information from the IDF on all soldiers who were wounded or killed, including the two reserve soldiers killed in Ramallah while in Palestinian police custody. We attempted to investigate the killings of the two IDF reservists but were not given access to the relevant medical information.
It is important to note that PHR also found in the course of its research some clear misinterpretations of IDF activities, and we conclusively stated that we had found no evidence that IDF personnel had ever used "dum-dum" bullets or other types of expanding munitions during its operations PHR also conclusively found that IDF spokespeople were correct in calling the death of 'Issam Judeh Mustafa Hamed a vehicular accident.
While not the focus of our study, the PHR report clearly states that children should be protected by the Palestinian community and Palestinian authorities to the fullest extent possible. We condemn abuses against children. We strongly believe that parents and authorities should not expose these children to harm.
Both Palestinian and Israeli authorities have a responsibility to ensure that
children are not targets of lethal weapons or inappropriate use of force. Also, PHR is very concerned about any use of children as combatants –a clear violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child—and strongly called in its report on the Palestinian Authority to not place children in combat situations. |
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In this case, you make a second straw man argument relating to the US invading Canada, which is so totally false an analogy it's not even worth discussing. Suffice it to say, Palestine did not even exist as a state before Israel sprung up, and Israel was weak as a kitten in the early days (pre-1948) when it started to be attacked by the people now known as Palestinians. This is hardly similar to a well-established country attacking its stated ally north of the border. |
Like ive shown you before in that super long response i gave you, Palestine was palestine for centuries, Longer than israel was Israel. The indeginous population of this middle eastern region was displaced and forced out/muredered to make room for predominately eastern european jews who are not INDIGENOUS to the land. Ruassians, Pols, lituanians, estonians etc..came in and took these people homes by force, claiming they had just as much, if not an even more right to the land than they did. They as a group of people Invaded these peoples HOMELAND...One of the most fucked up things ive ever learned next to the mass extermination of Jews in the halocaust.
And just becuase palestine was not internationally recognized as a nation, did that give the zionists a right to declare their own coutnry out of the blue???????
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Hamas is a terrorist organization with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. It says so unequivocally in their own charter. The IDF, on the other hand, may have a few shakey policies but certainly and without question acknowledges Palestine's right to exist as a state. |
Israel was founded on the notion that it is supposed to be a nation for and solely for the Jews. That means there must be no other peoples that may threaten this desired characteristic. Although they "acknowledge" palestines right to exist, zionist mentality hashinted that the pals are to be removed. Just look at their situation... they are living in horrible conditions. My opinioon on this is that the Israeli knesset wants to make life as shitty as possible for the pals so they voluntarily move out. Voluntary slow transfer.
How can you think they want the palestinians to be in the same region when that fat ball of shit Ariel Sharon has explicity been quoted saying
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"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." |
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Once again, I get tired of the rhetoric here. If anyone has an actual argument to present, then be my guest. But the fact of the matter is that Hamas has always chickened out after seeing Israel target its leadership, and I have no doubt that it will continue to do so. |
These people are not chicken... they do not fear death becuase of the "afterlife" they think they will experience. They are willing to blow themselves up for their cause. They do not care for innocents, as they see the state of ISrael as supporting itself through the actions the IDF takes against the pals daily.
Hamas will continue to exist until the palestinians feel no need to resist. Once the palestinians feel they dont have to fight for their freedom and land, these types of acts will cease to exist.
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Hardcore trancer, I've never watched CNN in my life. You've yet to come up with a single argument that does not take the form of a sweeping generalization or an ad hominem attack. |
I watch BBC
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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V
Last edited by Cyrus King on Apr-20-2004 at 19:41
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