My problem is purely with double standards. Minorities and women need only apply is plain wrong. I want true equality based on merit and not based on descrimination. I dont care where people come from or what they look like and neither should jobs and organizations when they are hiring people.

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Originally posted by Arcticboy DJ Smitty: Funny the story about the lebanese immigrants that (assuming your story is accurate) are taking advantage of the system. I wonder what your thoughts are on the generations of Canadian born welfare families. But, of course, it is because the others are immigrants "easily gaining access to the benefits" of Canada that they are taking advantage. The point is, your comments are more discriminatory than you seem to realize (or at least I hope so). I too don't agree with the OSAP policy (because high income earners already pay more taxes), for example, but it's funny that you don't complain about the government only giving full OSAP to children of low income families in general, instead you're upset about the immigrants getting this benefit. I'm sure if we only had immigrants from nice, civilized, white countries like the UK, we'd never have any such problems. That stupid Trudeau. For the record, Canada does not accept immigrants simply out of the goodness of the white Canadian's hearts. It was and still is a purely economically driven policy. Without immigrants, Canada would go bankrupt. Simple as that buddy. Immigrants either bring investment into Canada, or contribute to the workforce paying taxes and supporting a system which would otherwise fail due shrinking population (not counting immigration) and growing percentage of senior citizens. Any abuse of the system by some bad apples among immigrants is the same as bad apples born in Canada, but overall immigration is by far more beneficial for Canada. As for the white man being the most persecuted, what a bunch of bullshit. At the next TA meet up, why don't we have a chat and exchange some stories of racism to see how bad you've had it. Also, you clearly have no concept of what it's like for someone to immigrate to a totally new place, and how difficult it is to make a respectable life for yourself and your family, even if it's to a great country like Canada. Wow, I really didn't think this level of ignorance still existed.

Yes, my friend's family IS taking advantage of the system. As for welfare, there is always going to be people below the poverty line. While I think the government should do as much to help these people, welfare should be administered strictly and effectively. My problem with OSAP is that it's not accessible to anybody BUT low income class people, including many immigrants. The Government doesn't seem to realise that a person who makes 50,000 dollars a year is working class and has bills up the ass. It's extremely difficult for a parent to fund their child's education by forking over more than 10% of their wage a year. I don't expect my parents or the government to pay my way, but I DO expect some help. Instead, I'm estimated at ZERO dollars every year, while people who weren't even born in this country get a free ride.

As for immigration...I'd rather see this country invest in policies of stimulating reproduction at higher rates rather than just bringing in 400,000 people a year. You talk about discrimination...I'll tell you what...EVERYBODY has prejudices. Personally, I'm sick of going down to my corner store for smokes and not being able to understand the guy behind the counter because he doesn't speak English and gets quite rude when you say "sorry?". That's offensive to me, a native born Canadian. The official languages of this nation are English and French, but for some reason, especially at Western, I rarely hear them being spoken. And if immigration is necessary, at least the government should be more selective in who they bring in. Take the most qualified people...if that means more Brits, Europeans and Japanese are coming in rather than Arabs, Idians or Africans, well then too fucking bad. Except that's not the case at all...this country is far too lenient.

You wanna talk about stories of racism? Sure, I'll give you a few. I can't count how many times I've heard Arab guys at school and my work bitch about how Canada sucks or that September 11th was a great thing and how much Jews are bastards, etc. Or how about my Lebanese friend saying Canadian people have no family values and all white women are whores because they have pre marital sex? I once wore an England shirt to school during the 2002 World Cup and I was given nasty looks and sneers by a few ginos and an Arabic guy. How many times have I seen immigrants bitching about the monarchy and how Christmas and Easter shouldn't be statutory holidays because they're Christian in origin and violate the Charter under religious freedom? It's precisely that kind of crap that I cannot stand....if you're going to come to this country, please respect the traditions, customs and laws here. Keep your religion all you want, but don't preach and demand that Canadian and British common-law be swept aside to accomodate your beliefs. That wasn't the intent of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...a lot of people take it way too far.

I understand that it's difficult to come to this country...but after all, whether for economic reasons or not, WE are taking YOU into OUR country. Why should we bend over backwards to make you feel comfortable? This is why borders across the world still exist. You can call it ignorance all you want, but this sort of backlash isn't an isolated sentiment...I think you'll find that many white Canadians are feeling that they're constantly being attacked these days in many, many ways.

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"No offense, but you're stupid"

Listen, I'm curious, how many of the native Canadian languages do you speak? Oh, and how in touch are you with the native's traditions and customs? ......That's what I thought.

I won't waste my breath on you anymore, as you're obviously more ignorant than I even realized. But that's not your fault, so I won't judge you. Instead, I'll wish for your sake that you have experiences in your life that help open your eyes to your ignorance. If that day comes, think of me.

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Originally posted by Arcticboy Listen, I'm curious, how many of the native Canadian languages do you speak? Oh, and how in touch are you with the native's traditions and customs? ......That's what I thought. I won't waste my breath on you anymore, as you're obviously more ignorant than I even realized. But that's not your fault, so I won't judge you. Instead, I'll wish for your sake that you have experiences in your life that help open your eyes to your ignorance. If that day comes, think of me.

If I was a Native (as in an Aborigonal person), I would have capitalised the word Native. I'm native to this country, meaning I was born here. I speak English and a bit of French, though it's hard for me to read it. So you can't care to debate my points? I find that all too common...when the truth stares people in the face, they just say "oh, you're so ignorant." I'm ignorant to you and you are ignorant to me.

Is it not racist for my Arab friend to tell me white Canadian girls are whores and we have no values? And that women should be put in their place? That isn't how we do things here...so maybe you should open your eyes and see where people like me are coming from.

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"No offense, but you're stupid"

I think canada needs to strike a balance between accepting new immigrant customs and protecting its traditions. i am all for learning new languages and learning new customs but not if i am going to be told that my home country's customs are somehow "offensive" just because we mention santa or jesus at school. People who think like this can go back for all i care.... acceptance works both ways

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 If I was a Native (as in an Aborigonal person), I would have capitalised the word Native. I'm native to this country, meaning I was born here. I speak English and a bit of French, though it's hard for me to read it. So you can't care to debate my points? I find that all too common...when the truth stares people in the face, they just say "oh, you're so ignorant." I'm ignorant to you and you are ignorant to me. Is it not racist for my Arab friend to tell me white Canadian girls are whores and we have no values? And that women should be put in their place? That isn't how we do things here...so maybe you should open your eyes and see where people like me are coming from.

I did not care to "debate" your points, because the prospects of educating you seemed too hopeless. And your points clearly showed you did not even understand what I was trying to tell you earlier. It doesn't surprise me that you say you commonly find people telling you that you're ignorant. Maybe you should think about that a little.

By the way, funny how my not capitalizing the word Native caught your attention more than the point I was trying to convey. I'm sorry my immigrant English writing wasn't perfect enough for you, LOL. Sad.

I hate to do this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you'll actually listen to what I'm saying and "debate" your points below:

1. It is very ironic for you as a white man to think that somehow you have more right to this land than those citizens who immigrated here, when your white ancestors were not particularly welcome here once upon a time. If I have to pick between white people and Natives (yes, Aboriginal is another acceptable term) as to who has any true claims to this land, we all know who that would be. The reality, however, is that we all now live here, so get over it white boy. Just like the white man has been telling the poor Natives that they should get over it as Canada (and that includes new citizens like me) continues to screw them over.

2. OSAP: I thought I made myself clear that I too disagree with the OSAP rule. By the way, that's not the only place where this happens in society. For instance, daycare subsidy is only available to those below a certain income. The problem with such policies in my opinion is that the graded tax system already does more than enough to make high earners pay their share (or more!). If you earn $100,000 you pay about $50,000 in taxes, four times as much as someone earning $40,000 (both single people).

The point is that your singling out of immigrants who benefit from the policies is just unnecessary and clearly prejudiced. Immigrants and converted citizens were brought here to become part of this society and contribute to it and benefit from it. The good and the bad. So pointing out that some immigrants benefit from society's benefits is just uncalled for, they damn well should! Now, if some members of society (immigrant or not) are abusing the system, that's a separate issue that we're always trying to fix but of course some still manage to take advantage.

3. IMMIGRATION: Wow, your second paragraph is so screwed up (I'm really sorry, but it just drips of ignorance) I don't even know where to begin. You should go and read the rest of this thread as posts by myself and others explain immigration policies and why certain people are chosen over others. By the way, even if Canada were somehow to decided that you are right and that we should only accept people from the developed nations you mentioned from now on, did it ever occur to you that people from such countries don't even want to come here? Plus, you are clearly not recognizing the contribution of a multicultural immigration policy to the current identity of Canada. Canada is the best country in the world among all those I've lived in and visited (quite a few), and its true multiculturalism is the most unique of all its strengths. I truly believe that we can be a model for the world if we manage to stay the course.

I am sorry that you have experience what seemed like discrimination towards you because you are white. I am however even more sorry that the experience didn't open your eyes a little more. I would have thought that the experience would maybe at least give you a little taste of the humiliation and abuse that visible minorities and immigrants have to deal with on a regular basis sometimes.

One last thing, your idea of stimulating procreation instead of accepting immigrants is just silly. No offence, but it shows you don't understand much of the factors that have lead to the population decline and what kind of task it would be to overcome that.

4. RACISM: I fail to see how stories of your non-white friends being racist people shows your suffering from racism as a white man. LOL, I am so happy for you that you have been fortunate enough that the best story of personal "persecution" as a white man you can come up with is about being given dirty looks when you were wearing an England shirt during the World Cup.

So it sounds like you have some friends who are also racist or sexist. What does that have to do with anything? There are many "real" Canadians who believe strongly enough in a religion to think that if you have sex before marriage you are a whore, etc. What's your point? If your point is that some people immigrating from non-white countries can also be racist, you are damn right. I'll be the first to admit that Iranians in general are very racist. Towards westerners, towards arabs, towards chinese, Indians, you name it. The same is true of many other cultures who have had little exposure to people of various backgrounds. That includes Indians, Chinese, and several European countries. It's all due to fear and ignorance towards the unknown. Just like Canadians used to be before any significant immigration. Another reason why Canada in it's multicultural form is such a great opportunity to show that different races CAN live among each other with tolerance rather than a melting pot scenario as in the States.

You're upset that some immigrants don't like the monarchy? That is just silly. Many "real" Canadians (i.e. those who were born here, as you clearly think that somehow means you should have more to say about the way things should be) don't agree with the monarchy. Hell, many British feel the same way! I'm sorry, is immigration and naturalization in Canada only with the condition that the newcomers don't have the right to express their opinions on anything and that all the decisions should be made by white people? In other words, what you'd really like is slaves, not immigrants.

The same goes for your comment about the Easter Holidays. I personally am of the view that the Christian tradition in Canada should remain that way (although I'm not Christian). However, many others don't and I respect their opinion. Tell me, if someone is born in Canada in a non-Christian home, is it alright for them to experess their disagreement with Easter being a holiday? After all, many muslims, Jews, and Hindu's were born here. Or is that right too reserved for those born here in white families?

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not "the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as Convenient to Redneck White People". It is there to set a standard, the one thing I will forever consider Canada endebted to Trudeau and Chretien for.

5. YOUR COUNTRY: Last but not least. Yes, YOU took me and other immigrants into YOUR country. And for that I am so grateful. Canada has given me a home, in an environment that allowed me to feel truly accepted, more so than even my own country did. Within a few years of moving here (I came in 1987) I felt very Canadian already. I now consider myself at least 50% "Canadian" and the rest a mixture of all the other influences I've had. Since early on, I've lived here as a proud and committed Canadian, made myself aware of the issues more than most people born here, supported the economy by buying Canadian products, and have been as productive a member of this society as anyone could possibly be. BUT, you have to understand that I consider myself a Canadian, period. No less than you are, whether or not you like it. So you'll excuse me and other immigrant Canadians if we don't come over and kiss your little white Canadian feet in appreciation and thanks for being here. You let us in for ECONOMIC reasons, and economic benefit you have received. THIS IS NOT YOUR COUNTRY ALONE ANYMORE BUDDY.



The above was written as a courtesy to you and others reading this thread whom might have otherwise had the wrong impression from my initially refusing to respond to your "points".

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 ....estimated at ZERO dollars every year, while people who weren't even born in this country get a free ride.

Free ride! HARDLY...

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It is time

I see elements of racism in both Smitty and Arcticboy's posts. I suggest you both give your heads a shake..

terms like "whiteboy" and "redneck" are no better than any of the other derogatory terms i can think of. Especially in the contexts in which they are presented here.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 I see elements of racism in both Smitty and Arcticboy's posts. I suggest you both give your heads a shake.. terms like "whiteboy" and "redneck" are no better than any of the other derogatory terms i can think of. Especially in the contexts in which they are presented here.

If I were you, I'd concentrate more on the meaning behind everything I wrote rather than get caught up on two words. You might want to look up the definition of racism, and see if such an attitude was reflected in anything I wrote. The term "white boy" was used sarcastically by me, deliberately, as I was responding to a post in which he referred to himself as being hard done by as a "white" man. My apologies if that did not come across clearly. As for redneck, it was not directed at anyone specific if you read the quote again, but was directed at the idea that the Charter is no good if it serves the needs of immigrants beyond some arbitrary point of his choosing. (But, if you think about it, some of the comments and attitudes are pretty much the definition of redneck, though he might not have been aware of it.) If nobody here is a redneck, then no need to take offence to the term, is there?

By the way, if you knew me, then you'd realize there is no way whatsoever that I am racist (yes, I can comfortably say that). Maybe we'll get to meet at a future event.

Holly smokes....why write so much?
next time just condense it down!!?!? You don't need to write an essay to prove your point lol....

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Photo Album: *Click*

Arctic: i completely understand. I was just using it to prove a point about double standards though. Had a whit guy gone off and used questionable ethnic names no matter the context, youd have everyone and his uncle screaming racism. I agree with you though, people are too hung up on this sort of thing. I am not one of them. I hope you realize the point i was making there.

And i hope some of us learn from that example and apply it to everyday life. This whole thread is about how i am sick of the double standards that are routinely applied when it comes to race in this country.