quote:

Originally posted by MarkT I meant that I don't think that could be attributed as a uniquely Liberal attitude (without granting that it's a Liberal attitude at all, of course)

We might be talking about two different things here. I think you're interpreting my statement as:

a) The pro-choice movement is populated solely by liberals;

whereas what I'm actually saying is:

b) The pro-choice movement is a liberal one.

They may sound the same but keep in mind that (b) does not say anything about the people who believe in it. I am probably just slightly conservative overall, but certainly do have some liberal beliefs, including the pro-choice platform as well as several others (drug and sex education, opposition to organized religion, etc.). I call them liberal beliefs knowing full well that it does not make me a liberal to believe in them (I don't think anyone would accuse me of that ) - but the beliefs are nonetheless still liberal.

So I hope that clarifies - the implication is not that *only* liberals are pro-choice, but since it is a liberal belief you will no doubt find that it is held predominantly (but certainly not solely/uniquely) by political liberals.

Any strong political belief is either going to be left or right - no matter how rational something seems, it's only moderate if it's neutral.

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maybe the confusion lies in the use of Liberal vs. liberal.

When you wrote "BRILLIANT! It's the good old-fashioned Liberal practice of making a political statement by dodging any real intelligent debate and forcing it down everybody else's throat instead! BLEEDING-HEART PROTESTERS UNITE!"

I interpreted your remark as refering to the Liberal party...not liberals, as in liberal-minded people.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT I support your decision...but I'd have supported your decision for an abortion too. Having said that...you (apparently) were in a position to care for your daughter and presumably (I don't know you) give her a good home with a caring parent (or parents if you're with someone). So I personally am glad that you made the decision that you did Unfortunately, if abortion was not an option, some kids would not grow up under such good circumstances. The last thing I want to see is a baby born with fetal alcohol syndrome or with some other disease thanks to their crack-whore mother who got pregnant when she turned a trick so that she could score more rock (to use an intentionally extreme example). I'm not personally offended by the shirt, but I'd question the motives of anyone who chose to wear it...because it would upset a lot of people, particularly those who made the (hopefully) very difficult decision to have one. As a joke, it's tasteless...as a political statement, I suppose it's defendable, if nothing more.

What's worse.. growing up under not so good circumstances.. or being killed and not given the chance to live and choose for yourself?

Also.. if a crackwhore got pregnant, the baby probably wouldn't live regardless.

Everyone supports women who have abortions. Sure mistakes happen, but sometimes it makes me sick to see girls having them left right and centre when they ARE in good circumstances, and not crack whores etc. I think it's an extremely selfish choice.

I decided to have my daughter when I saw the little bean on the ultrasound. Sure she was basically nothing then, but she was still a creation, a part of me..she had a freakin heartbeat at 7 weeks. and I changed MY life for her. I made changes to better myself for her. Fucking take responsibility for your actions or practice abstinence.

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quote:

Originally posted by Waxen What's worse.. growing up under not so good circumstances.. or being killed and not given the chance to live and choose for yourself? Also.. if a crackwhore got pregnant, the baby probably wouldn't live regardless. Everyone supports women who have abortions. Sure mistakes happen, but sometimes it makes me sick to see girls having them left right and centre when they ARE in good circumstances, and not crack whores etc. I think it's an extremely selfish choice. I decided to have my daughter when I saw the little bean on the ultrasound. Sure she was basically nothing then, but she was still a creation, a part of me..she had a freakin heartbeat at 7 weeks. and I changed MY life for her. I made changes to better myself for her. Fucking take responsibility for your actions or practice abstinence.

I agree with you to a certain extent. But if the woman isn't ready for the baby, then I think that she should really consider the option of abortion. I TOTALLY agree with you that girls should not have them, left right and centre, they should definitley learn from the first time, use birth control and a condom or as you said abstinence. But I do not think that it is a selfish choice at all. I think that when the women has the abortion they are of course thinking about themselves, but I also think that they are considering what kind of life that their baby might have if they were to actually give birth to the baby. I personally think that it is probably one of the hardest choices that a women has to make. I also think that in the long run, that it might be a responsible decision.

(BTW, I felt the exact same when I went for my ultrasound, it's absolutley incredible to know that you're going to have two heart beats for 9 months and that there's a life growing inside of you.)

quote:

Originally posted by charmscars i have no problem w/ the shirt. i don't think it's meant as a joke. I think it's meant to try to take away the shame and taboo that moral conservatives try to associate w/ abortions, and to encourage dialogue

Exactly!

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BTW - the Florida DMV allows "Pro Life" logos on plates - so don't talk about liberals slamming agenda's down people's throats.

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Dark Dirty Tech Tribal. | Hands in air (trance) and feet on the floor (house).

quote:

Originally posted by Waxen Also.. if a crackwhore got pregnant, the baby probably wouldn't live regardless.

Crack babies are born every day. It's quite sad. They're a mess.

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^^^ no kidding. Waxen, you're merely stating your opinions...go check out a hospital ward where babies are born all the time with serious illness and disabilities due to the lack of health of their parents. My aunt works with them every day and I could tell you horror stories of the "rescues" they've had to go out and make.

I'd also suggest that those who use abortion as birth control are a significant minority. It's not exactly a pleasant proceedure. I don't think there are girls all over the place who shrug and say "meh, I'll just get an abortion now that I got preganant again".

being killed vs. growing up and choosing for themselves? Unlike most animals, human babies are not self-reliant for YEARS in our society. There is little opportunity for them to grow up at all if they are born into unhealthy, dangerous, or abusive circumstances.

My personal position is that I'd prefer abortion be performed only when necessary (ie. the life of the mother or child would be endangered should the pregnancy be carried to term), but I recognize that it's probably better to let individual mothers (and fathers) make that decision, even though there are those who will make very selfish choices. It's the nature of our society...people are often unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions and live with the consequences when they have a "way out".

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker BTW - the Florida DMV allows "Pro Life" logos on plates - so don't talk about liberals slamming agenda's down people's throats.

How is the Florida DMV a liberal organization or even a left-tilting organization? If they're going to allow "Pro Choice" logos then they damn well have to allow "Pro Life" logos, that's the way it should be.

Mark - at no point was I referring to the Liberal government, so sorry for any confusion. I'm not necessarily referring to all Liberals either - mostly it's the liberal media I'm talking about, but since it's watched by a huge number of people in this country, I see it reflected in several otherwise intelligent people too.

Ashley and Waxen, you're both making very valid points - but I doubt that whoever designed that T-shirt was thinking about crack babies or pointless abortions, they're just pushing an agenda that they probably don't even really understand, which I daresay happens a lot in this political climate. I get tired of seeing "protestors" who barely even know what they're protesting about.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by tatgirl Crack babies are born every day. It's quite sad. They're a mess.

it's tremondously sad, friends of my family used to care for crack babies (as foster parents) I can def say that i woudl rather be aborted as fetus than to live that life. it's terribly sad.

and w/ regards for taking responsibilty. i mean, if a person can't provide a good home for a baby then taking resposbility for it and raising it still isn't doing what's best for it. if someone doesn't feel that they can give a baby the best home and doesn't want to have an abortion then giving the baby up for adoption is likely a better option. several friends of mine who have been adopted have the most amazing and loving parents w/ the resources to take care of a child properly.

it all depends on how you view abortion. i personally don't see unevolved cells as a human breathing baby, some ppl do. and that's fine, not everyone thinks the same way and i don't expect ppl to see it my way.

Ok I was wrong w/ the crack baby thing. I realize they are born.. and it's possible they live but a lot of them die too.. and yes it is sad, I can't imagine a little baby being born with that burden.

I'm assuming abortion wouldn't be a pleasent experience, but I have seen my share of girls who flaunt the fact that they've had more than 1 abortion. COMMON. That's just wrong

We are forgetting the CHOICE of adoption here. Fine.. you can't raise your baby for whatever reason - too young, not ready mentally.. whatever "exscuse" it is.. there is still the choice to give it up to a family who can't have children or who have been on waiting lists for years. Wouldn't you rather give your child life and to a family that will love and take good care of it, rather then running from your "mistake". I think abortion is just an easy way out. Don't bullshit yourselves.

At the same time, I'm not going to hold it against a person who does choose to do it. It's their life.. their decisions, but it doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it.

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