quote:

Originally posted by DaveSZ This election isn't even about liberal versus conservative, or Republican verses Democrat, versus Green, versus libertarian, etc. I believe we need to look at this election through a completely different paradigm altogether at this point. This election is much more significant than those simplistic ideological or partisan divides, and indeed is perhaps the most significant US election for the United States and the world since 1860. It's about whether or not we choose to trample on the Bill of Rights or choose to respect our fundamental civil liberties while simultaneously confronting the terror threat. It’s about whether or not one wants Big Brother looking over their shoulder at the library, the bookstore, or through their private medical records without a warrant. It's about whether or not we deny millions of Americans – not “gay people,” but Americans - their right to due process in the federal courts as the House of Representatives voted to do the other day. It's about whether or not our government hires private contractors to torture, rape, and sodomize children, or whether we repudiate that practice and return to the rule of law concerning torture. It's about whether or not we "lose" another one billion taxpayer dollars down the memory hole to the robber barons. It’s about whether or not we believe a child’s life is worth $700, or believe that life to be priceless and irreplaceable. I hear Mr. Bush often talk about “values,” and based on his record I wonder to myself what exactly he does value... A Republican, a Democrat, a liberal, a conservative, who does not value the fundamental human dignities and rights of man, nor the constitution he or she swore to uphold, DOES NOT SHARE MY VALUES. Such an individual can only serve to devalue us all as a people.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I am amazed that there are still defenders of this administration, what is there left to defend any longer and still save face.

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Trance = Heart, Mind, Body and Soul all in 1

Current fav. Global Experience = Madras

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Originally posted by NYCTrancefan I see that you keep making this reference to the fact that America was hated before 9/11 does that make our current path of action any more right today.

I never said that it made it right course of action - you are reading into it. Stop being so aggressive. I wasn't attacking you.
You could 'never imagine' how anyone could not see that Bush is the vien of all American existance, I simply was trying to expand your imagination.

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The reason that I am emotional about my position is that many Iraqis have been killed along with our own soldiers and the reason for this war still flies right by me.

Although you have all right to be emotional, it is not a very sound idea to base your ideology on emotions.

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Where are the Weapons, where is the security, where is the stability, where is the decrease in terror and violence in Iraq, as I write this five more people were killed in another suicide bombing, top of the morning news indeed.

There is more and more security. Give the place time. Its not easy to gain peace amongst a horde of barbarians with your arms tied behind your back. It'll take a while.

The weapons as we know today were simply a 'con' game by Saddam. The answer to this is still unknown by many. We do know there were weapons, and we do know we can't find them now. Where they are, is what everyone is still trying to figure out.

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Something went seriously wrong in Iraq and I hold the Bush administration fully accountable for that.

Can you tell me what went seriously wrong in Iraq?

I think you are judging this war by some heavenly standard that you simply can not judge things on earth with. I judge this war by history, and if the USA stays its course, this will most likely be the greatest military success the world has ever seen, surely in the 20th/21th century.

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Not one of their promises about Iraq has panned out. The current administration demonstrated to me a lack of understanding about the Middle East in their pursuit of war.

Reverting back to extremisim eh? "Not one of their promises..."
Well, how about turing over soveriegnty to the Iraqis by a June 30th deadline? Good to the word. Hmm.. Invading Iraq if it doesn't give up Saddam? Did it. I fail to see where you are coming from. What specific promises are you refering to that have not panned out?

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I defended this administration leading up to Iraq because they were making some pretty serious claims about Iraq's capabilities, what happened. I am left with only one conclusion that the Bush administration had a clear agenda for Iraq, which was to invade at any and all cost.

I guess this is what you get when you blindly follow one ideology. My rational for the basis of the Iraqi war consisted of the primary reason of Iraq's violation of international law. Secondary that it behaved in threatening manners to the USA, Third that its overthrow would bring a chance for a new birth in the Middle East, Fourth that it had WMD, Fifth that it was an oppressive regieme.

Perhaps I was wiser in listening to the neo-conservative argumentation to the war. However, Bush echoed these same points and assigned them no 'level' or priority - that was your discretion.

They missed one out of five for me that an't such a big deal. Four out of five is a pretty good record.

Infact I'm happy they didn't find WMD, it would be much worse if they did. Don't know why you are cheering for an armagadon that would have involved WMD just to make you emotionally happy.

Regardless, I don't know how you back up your belief that the adminstration 'decieved' the world with WMD. They were mistaken, perhaps one of the biggest mistakes and intelligence foul up since.. Sept 11th. but a big one none the less. And for that I would have enjoyed seeing more heads cut off in the CIA and other intelligence services. Me and Bh don't always see eye to eye you know...

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They are being taught a valuable lesson however for their deplorable actions.

What lesson is that?

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