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Originally posted by Cobalt I have experienced heavy jetlag, but it's a bit silly to ask if I had to perform every night, too. You're just making excuses for DJs to get away with fame and fortune for less than others are capable of. If performance at the decks is affected by travel, a DJ has to make a tradeoff: either earn less money and exposure by adopting a less taxing tour schedule, or take the heat for mixing less than optimally. Same goes for quality of production. It's not up to us as critics to make allowances for poor career management; that's the responsibility of the artist. Our job is to give praise when it is deserved, as well as criticism. It doesn't matter if the artist is Tiesto or Joe Smith in the production forum. Letting top DJs slide with their mixing and/or production is nothing but a disservice to trance, as it lowers standards for the genre as a whole.

So you aren't happy unless the top DJs perform a perfectly mixed set each time they stand up to perform?

I would say that an awesome thing for the genre as a whole is the technical difficulty in performing on the decks, especially with the type of systems we are talking, and imperfections show a human side to the scene as a whole that alot of people don't appreciate but does exist.

The style you like, well, you might as well have a robot up there mixing, or just get a computer to do it.

You ease off the DJ's schedule and next you will criticise him/her for losing touch with the people. You can never win.

It almost seems fashionable on this board to diss musical artists that are superstars in my book, and this IMO makes the critic look totally idiotic, because they just don't understand what its like.

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TA all round nice guy.

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Originally posted by spec Yeah, but where's your fucking badge that allows you to judge them? Its like someone thats never gone to school rating a University lecturer's knowledge. Its just silly.

People don't need a badge to judge music, just experience. And your example doesn't really fit, because one would be critical of the lecturer's ability to teach, not of his knowledge. In fact, most universities get feedback from students on how well they feel a professor has taught a course, because it allows them to keep the best faculty and let go of the worst. This allows the quality of the education to improve.

Similarly, it is the feedback of trance listeners that maintains quality in the genre. Universities don't give poor lecturers a pat on the back, saying "it's okay if your lectures suck, you have seven classes to teach so we'll let it slide." So why should we do so with DJs and producers? Like lecturers, they are presenting a service; professors for students, DJs for clubgoers. So shouldn't it be us, the clubgoers, who evaluate how well they play?

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Often expanding the boundaries involves trying new things and ideas, and techniques, and the thought of some dj on stage with a computer bores me to tears, so as long as they are keeping it real whilst playing on vinyl and making it an awesome experience then I'm happy.

That's all part of what goes into being a good DJ, I agree. But trainwrecks aren't one of the positive qualities that come to mind.

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I've gotta say that when an awesome dj comes to town I'm too busy dancing, trying to pick up girls and having a kick-ass time to care if the beats aren't perfectly matched. I'm not one of these geeks that downloads every gig every played looking for little mistakes or the people that sit in the corner when an International DJ plays simply listening for the mix rather more than track selection.

Purist "geeks" are often too busy dancing, not sitting in the corner. That's part of what makes a good DJ. Trainwrecks ruin the flow, and a set without good construction will leave a seasoned trance fan bored and dissatisfied.

If you really don't care that much about the sets people put down, then you don't have much stake in this argument, as you wouldn't particularly care who were deemed the "best" DJs. For others who feel more strongly about trance and get more out of the music than a backdrop for pickups, we do care who is called the "best," and why.

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Originally posted by Cobalt People don't need a badge to judge music, just experience. And your example doesn't really fit, because one would be critical of the lecturer's ability to teach, not of his knowledge. In fact, most universities get feedback from students on how well they feel a professor has taught a course, because it allows them to keep the best faculty and let go of the worst. This allows the quality of the education to improve. Similarly, it is the feedback of trance listeners that maintains quality in the genre. Universities don't give poor lecturers a pat on the back, saying "it's okay if your lectures suck, you have seven classes to teach so we'll let it slide." So why should we do so with DJs and producers? Like lecturers, they are presenting a service; professors for students, DJs for clubgoers. So shouldn't it be us, the clubgoers, who evaluate how well they play? That's all part of what goes into being a good DJ, I agree. But trainwrecks aren't one of the positive qualities that come to mind. Purist "geeks" are often too busy dancing, not sitting in the corner. That's part of what makes a good DJ. Trainwrecks ruin the flow, and a set without good construction will leave a seasoned trance fan bored and dissatisfied. If you really don't care that much about the sets people put down, then you don't have much stake in this argument, as you wouldn't particularly care who were deemed the "best" DJs. For others who feel more strongly about trance and get more out of the music than a backdrop for pickups, we do care who is called the "best," and why.

I don't agree with your opinion, but I respect it, as you have given this mushc thought.

I'm pretty sure that many that post with similar opinions do so because they've jumped on the bandwagon where its fashionable to criticise those that are popular or successful just for the sake of it, or they do so to appear knowledgable.

Personally I'm too busy listening to new music to be bothered remembering a few mis-matched beats here or there, and a good night is more determined by track selection and ability keep a crowd on its feet rather than more technical aspects and perfection, which are important yes, but not the most important.

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TA all round nice guy.

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Originally posted by spec So you aren't happy unless the top DJs perform a perfectly mixed set each time they stand up to perform?

It's not a binary happy/unhappy when I go to events. I really doubt it is for most people, too. Satisfaction with a set falls on a spectrum, with "dire" at one end and "perfect" at the other. All I'm saying is that the best DJs should be those most capable of consistently putting out at the high end. Everyone has bad days, but I mean the overall picture.

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I would say that an awesome thing for the genre as a whole is the technical difficulty in performing on the decks, especially with the type of systems we are talking, and imperfections show a human side to the scene as a whole that alot of people don't appreciate but does exist.

The technical side of DJing is a skill like any other. Those more adept at it should be judged as better, in addition to factors such as set construction and crowd interaction.

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The style you like, well, you might as well have a robot up there mixing, or just get a computer to do it.

Turns out robots don't do crowd interaction very well. They also have problems with track selection, and style. You need a human being for that, and one who is well-rounded in each.

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You ease off the DJ's schedule and next you will criticise him/her for losing touch with the people. You can never win.

That's exactly right. There are unfortunate tradeoffs in life, constraints one has to work with. But those who manage them best deserve the most praise. We're looking at the whole picture. You can't be everywhere and play shitty sets, but you can't be a total recluse, either. Finding the right balance is simply part of being the best DJ.

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It almost seems fashionable on this board to diss musical artists that are superstars in my book, and this IMO makes the critic look totally idiotic, because they just don't understand what its like.

Superstars are superstars only so long as they deserve it. Oakenfold, for example, will always be remembered for his monolithic contributions to dance music. But when he lost the plot after 2001 he was rightly criticized for the lower quality, and gave way to rising talent.

shoes in a dryer

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Originally posted by Cobalt It's not a binary happy/unhappy when I go to events. I really doubt it is for most people, too. Satisfaction with a set falls on a spectrum, with "dire" at one end and "perfect" at the other. All I'm saying is that the best DJs should be those most capable of consistently putting out at the high end. Everyone has bad days, but I mean the overall picture. The technical side of DJing is a skill like any other. Those more adept at it should be judged as better, in addition to factors such as set construction and crowd interaction. Turns out robots don't do crowd interaction very well. They also have problems with track selection, and style. You need a human being for that, and one who is well-rounded in each. That's exactly right. There are unfortunate tradeoffs in life, constraints one has to work with. But those who manage them best deserve the most praise. We're looking at the whole picture. You can't be everywhere and play shitty sets, but you can't be a total recluse, either. Finding the right balance is simply part of being the best DJ. Superstars are superstars only so long as they deserve it. Oakenfold, for example, will always be remembered for his monolithic contributions to dance music. But when he lost the plot after 2001 he was rightly criticized for the lower quality, and gave way to rising talent.

Isn't it funny though how things can often sound perfect at a club but play them through a car or home stereo and all of a sudden mistakes appear?

I understand your balance, but I don't agree with labelling any of the top DJs, especially those in the top 10 list, with beign shit in the overall picture. No way.

I've heard crap PvD and Tiesto sets, but I say this mainly in regards to track selection, and PvD can sometimes fail to keep the crowd energy up.

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TA all round nice guy.

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Originally posted by spec Don't you just love bedroom experts dissing the world's top djs like Tiesto, PvD and Oakenfold. What fuckwits. When you earn millions producing your own work, play to 1,000s of punters at festivals, parties and raves all around the world on minimal sleep and jetlagged, only for little armchair experts to know better and criticise your skills. Give me a fucking break.

Well holy shit...I finally agree with you on something!

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Originally posted by spec Don't you just love bedroom experts dissing the world's top djs like Tiesto, PvD and Oakenfold. What fuckwits. When you earn millions producing your own work, play to 1,000s of punters at festivals, parties and raves all around the world on minimal sleep and jetlagged, only for little armchair experts to know better and criticise your skills. Give me a fucking break.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these superstars play pop music to appeal to the masses and earn more money. But that alone is not the problem. The problems are that they call themselves DJ's, they deny doing what they do for the money, and they play bastardized music and are hailed by ignorant fools like you as gods or something greater than a jukebox with hair.

Skills? What the fuck do you know? You don't even know what a real DJ is. Hell, we've got idiots saying Oakenfold is a legend. I don't fucking think so. Those sets he did in '99 aren't legend, and neither is Tranceport. Uh oh time for trancecracker #5345762287 to try and flame me with his ignorant views. Well whoop dee fucking do. I guess that means i've done my job.

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Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

I posted this a while back:

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Originally posted by trancebrat Regardless of whether or not you like an artist unless you are out there banging out some new tracks trying to keep this scene alive...as opposed to getting fucked up every weekend at some club listening to their music...then chill with all of the hating. Even when I don't care for an artist I have mentioned it tactfully...even pointing about something positive about them. The ones that are bashed the most have a shitload more going on than the majority of us do. If we were out there touring the world and/or producing music that DJ's everywhere were playing we probably wouldn't be on here bitching and moaning about how much we like or dislike an artist/DJ.

Not every venue or crowd will be conducive to a perfect evening. Everyone has their days when they are on and when they are off. I think people just forget that or they just expect too much. I don't view any DJ as a God. However I do thank them for creating/spinning the music that I love. Without them I would be fucked when it comes to hearing good music here!

Cobalt excellent rebutals! I agree 100 % in your positions.Just because I am not a world famous Dj does that make my understanding of music worthless? I think not. I think that many TA's on this site actualy have a much higher level of understanding of EDM that those who many admire as the worlds best.

Its just funny when anyone gives a bit of criticism to a "popular" DJ that you begin to offend those who also listen to his music. I would rather be a a "music geek" than some dumba$$ who listens to sh!t cuz everyone is telling him to listen to it. this is a music forum right?
Without criticism the music and the djs could not have the feedback needed to improved over time. I am serious about the music, as are alot of people on this forum, so to call someone a "geek" because they are passionate about EDM just indicates ones level of naivety with EDM or specifically their age.
Its unfortunate but good djs do end up becoming sh!tty over time.It Darwins theory of a DJ. Yes they were good and yes they did make contriubutions but as a avid listener I am not at club to hand out awards. "Death" of a DJ just opens the doors for new djs to take charge but more importantly increases sales for clubs and labels to promote the best "new " dj. this is why moving forward "popluarity" of dj will have to change.

In reguards to me not being a superstar Dj.....

the whole mix mag #1 thing is BULLSHIT. Seriously . It just a ploy by club owners and labels to create some type of excitement or sales for "the world # 1 dj". Who the f%ck is in charge of voting. Its not even done properly. How do you know its not fixed?? It should be called the world most popular DJ according to the few thousand DJ Mag subcribers,club owners, and DJ fans went to vote for him on Mix Mag's website. And the poor thing about it is that people keep using last years results as a reference for the following year. but hey it just like the "democracy" we have in america vote for either Democratic or Republican ( mirage of democracy). I mean if one was truely the world best than the vote tally should be in the millions not 20,000 ( as posted by mix mag). and how about all those "non geek" clubbers do you think actually vote for the worlds best DJ? Pleaze!! They dont even vote for there freakin president..hhehe.. but seriously. to indicate a DJ is supreme because of some foolish chart is idiot. And becuase a Dj makes a alot of $$ and has a huge follwoing does that make the music he plays good?? You are falling prey to what the music industry wants you to beleive. And I am sorry you havento rreached the level of maturity and wisdom as otehr TA have on this site.
Its just so funny to hear people who criticize those who listen to hip hop becuase they are trying to create some type of bad ass image or when people say shit about britteny spears showing her tits and appeals to people to listen to her music . But this whole # 1,#2, #3 this is just another creation from crass tasteless society. Its just another method created by the music industry , specifically designed for EDM to make money.
I guess youll change your mind or your opinions when the charts tell you huh??

Oh by the way I am not Paul Van Dyk so anything I said is competely wrong. Gezzz....

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Originally posted by Radagast It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these superstars play pop music to appeal to the masses and earn more money. But that alone is not the problem. The problems are that they call themselves DJ's, they deny doing what they do for the money, and they play bastardized music and are hailed by ignorant fools like you as gods or something greater than a jukebox with hair. Skills? What the fuck do you know? You don't even know what a real DJ is. Hell, we've got idiots saying Oakenfold is a legend. I don't fucking think so. Those sets he did in '99 aren't legend, and neither is Tranceport. Uh oh time for trancecracker #5345762287 to try and flame me with his ignorant views. Well whoop dee fucking do. I guess that means i've done my job.

Oakenfold is a complete bastard now, but he did do alot of good for the music. He WAS a real dj. He did mix quite well at times, and could produce nicely. Those sets he did in '99 are "legend" because people loved them so much, and they did so much for the scene. Theres alot more to djing than djing...oakenfold really knew how to create hype, give people a good time. He may be in it only for the money now (coke addict) but i like to think that back then he was going mainstream to bring this kind of music to more people. I'm probably wrong, but i'd like to think so.

I shouldnt waste my time typing this, and you shouldnt waste your time reading this, but i really feel that he did alot for the music.