quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid It is why I believe what I see with my own two eyes out in the real world.

Since you cannot see them with your own eyes, does that mean you deny the existence of the common cold, sub-atomic particles, black holes, neutrinos, the human spirit, solar radiation, x-rays, microwaves, radio waves, gamma-rays, static electricity, infrared and ultraviolet light, etc.?

You would have fit in well back in the dark ages.

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X So you mean to say that since you cannot see them with your own eyes, you deny the existence of the common cold, sub-atomic particles, black holes, neutrinos, the human spirit, solar radiation, x-rays, microwaves, gamma-rays, radio waves, infrared and ultraviolet light, etc.?

no no that I do know; it is science and I love science. Since science is what the world revolves around and it is how the world works. What I meant is that you never know what is going on behind the News and internet websites that report these type of things. How can you know the person typing the material(s) is realible and sane? See if you really know the truth that means you are the individual who is working for the government and is pretty much up there, in rank. I am just saying while talking about these matters on the internet is good and all but does that mean all the material you have read is true. No, this is a forum on opinion and some facts just not the truth when it comes to aliens and gov conspiracy.

quote:

You would have fit in well back in the dark ages.

Yea I am really sure I would have since my ideas are all based on god and crap.

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid just not the truth when it comes to aliens and gov conspiracy.

LOL - like you really have a clue about either, but yet you seem to maintain that you know a lot about what you don't know.

http://www.post-gazette.com/magazine/19980908ufo1.asp

http://www.post-gazette.com/neigh_w...gwestmor1p1.asp

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid Trees need hugs cuz of dead dolphins in tuna cans? I don't belive in either. we have never come into contact with any alien life. You see ogvh5150 I don't believe what I read on the internet or what I watch on the TV for all I know this could be some big elaborate plan on making the masses and so called non-masses chase or believe in something that is not real. You get people paranoid and the people will not be sure to what to believe in. It is why I believe what I see with my own two eyes out in the real world. Not like you ogvh sitting in front of your computer in a dark world afraid of what is going on outside

I was pointing out tree huggers, not you.

People believe what they see coming out of a black box called tv. They trust it, not knowing the flicker is fixating them. Where an idea in their mind implanted so that they believe it's thought by them.

No person wants to believe their thought processes are being changed for them which forms a common opinion.

Hence the tree hugger rant.

quote:

Originally posted by metalgearsolid ...What I meant is that you never know what is going on behind the News and internet websites that report these type of things. How can you know the person typing the material(s) is realible and sane? See if you really know the truth that means you are the individual who is working for the government and is pretty much up there, in rank. I am just saying while talking about these matters on the internet is good and all but does that mean all the material you have read is true. No, this is a forum on opinion and some facts just not the truth when it comes to aliens and gov conspiracy.

That's the trick. Who has what to gain when it comes to news gathering. I want people to know the unknown story and feel that somewhere out in the infobahn are lurkers out there that know something is wrong with the media's version of events that unfold.

I have nothing to gain. I use no banners or pop ups. There is no fine print.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 That's the trick. Who has what to gain when it comes to news gathering. I want people to know the unknown story and feel that somewhere out in the infobahn are lurkers out there that know something is wrong with the media's version of events that unfold. I have nothing to gain. I use no banners or pop ups. There is no fine print.

Now I am going to go on a rant.
The media tries to make a person think the way they want them to. For example cnn always airs how being tall is better and the more money you will make and Fox always say that beautiful people make more money, yet most Fox reporters are pretty damn ugly(Cavuto and O'reily) and jew looking(thats just about all of em!). Surely you don't really believe ALL people believe what they are told. I know there are lurkers out there and I am glad; for them to some extent, since they are out there and know that the media's version has always something to do with the media's morals and values.
So does this mean you knowing everything and being intelligent will help out the person's who need help or are you saying that people like you should be the ones in control of the media so they can get the truth? You have notihng to gain so feel free to respond.

btw TX pointed this out earlier I know nothing of nothing but I act as I do so if this makes no sense or if it seems like I am trying to make sense, sorry.

"There is no sanctuary"

I am not saying I am smarter or richer than the average person. I am only aware. I know there are others out there that choose to remain anonymous and should stay there. It's bad enough I have to hear sheeple claim I wear a tin-hat. Even worse is that they claim that their mind is of their own (the sheeple I mean).

Things can only be worse. That is by design and not by accident. There is no accidental history. There will always be an unseen hand. There will always be the manufactured "truth" on tv and the truth that you will never see. When people stand up and say "Hey wait a minute" they get chastised for bucking the system. They get labeled conspiracy nuts and the whole nine yards. Yet those same people making labels are the ones that would believe in the greys that mutilate cows. That there has to be population control. That Osama did this and bin Laden did that.

And I'm the conspiracy nut.

Better Living Through Technology

Soon there will be another 9/11 which I have no knowledge of BTW but when you have your ear to the ground you kind of know something is eerily odd. Lately there been all this talk about a possible earthquake in California or the talk of a marine vessel carrying a live nuke. Or a flu pandemic that will eclipse the Spanish Flu. Things like that raise eyebrows, but like I said the treehuggers with their anti-"wingnut" ideologies start running off at the mouth not offering anything but childish behavior.

Implantation of subdermal microchips is on the way in, it only needs a catalyst that the same people who thought of it would bring it about.

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Last edited by ogvh5150 on Sep-24-2005 at 04:34

September 30, 2005
FDNY Chaplain Resigns After Remarks About 9/11 Conspiracy Theory
NEW YORK (AP) -- The fire department's Muslim chaplain abruptly resigned Friday after saying in a published interview that a conspiracy, not 19 al-Qaida hijackers, may have been responsible for the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"It became clear to him that he would have difficulty functioning as an FDNY chaplain," Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta told reporters an hour before Imam Intikab Habib was to be officially sworn in. "There has been no prior indication that he held those views."

Habib told Newsday that he was skeptical of the official version of the attack on the World Trade Center, which killed 343 members of the Fire Department of New York. The newspaper published the interview hours before the swearing-in ceremony Friday.

"It takes two or three weeks to demolish a building like that. But it was pulled down in a couple of hours," Habib told the newspaper. "Was it 19 hijackers who brought it down, or was it a conspiracy?"

The 30-year Guyana native joined the department as chaplain on Aug. 15 after the FDNY's Islamic Society recommended him for the part-time position, which pays $18,000 a year.

Scoppetta said Habib, who was educated in Islamic law in Saudi Arabia and preaches at a New York mosque, had appeared qualified and passed a background check.

"It's sad," said Kevin James, a spokesman for the Islamic Society of Fire Department Personnel. "We had no idea those were his views. He's entitled to his opinion but he's not the right person for the chaplain."
FDNY Chaplain Resigns After Remarks About 9/11 Conspiracy Theory

We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th, malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty.
G.W. Bush addressing the UN General Assembly November 10th, 2001

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Last edited by ogvh5150 on Oct-01-2005 at 00:50

National Security Experts Speak Out:

9/11 Commission Falls Short


Date: September 13, 2004

To The Congress of The United States:

The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States ended its report stating that "We look forward to a national debate on the merits of what we have recommended, and we will participate vigorously in that debate."

In this spirit, we the undersigned wish to bring to the attention of the Congress and the people of the United States what we believe are serious shortcomings in the report and its recommendations.

We thus call upon Congress to refrain from narrow political considerations and to apply brakes to the race to implement the commission recommendations. It is not too late for Congress to break with the practice of limiting testimony to that from politicians and top-layer career bureaucrats-many with personal reputations to defend and institutional equities to protect.

Instead, use this unique opportunity to introduce salutary reform, an opportunity that must not be squandered by politically driven haste.

Omission is one of the major flaws in the Commission’s report. We are aware of significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the commission by those of us with direct knowledge, but somehow escaped attention.

Serious problems and shortcomings within government agencies likewise were reported to the Commission but were not included in the report. The report simply does not get at key problems within the intelligence, aviation security, and law enforcement communities. The omission of such serious and applicable issues and information by itself renders the report flawed, and casts doubt on the validity of many of its recommendations.

We believe that one of the primary purposes of the Commission was to establish accountability; that to do so is essential to understanding the failures that led to 9/11, and to prescribe needed changes.

However, the Commission in its report holds no one accountable, stating instead "our aim has not been to assign individual blame". That is to play the political game, and it shows that the goal of achieving unanimity overrode one of the primary purposes of this Commission’s establishment.

When calling for accountability, we are referring not to quasi-innocent mistakes caused by "lack of imagination" or brought about by ordinary "human error". Rather, we refer to intentional actions or inaction by individuals responsible for our national security, actions or inaction dictated by motives other than the security of the people of the United States.

The report deliberately ignores officials and civil servants who were, and still are, clearly negligent and/or derelict in their duties to the nation. If these individuals are protected rather than held accountable, the mindset that enabled 9/11 will persist, no matter how many layers of bureaucracy are added, and no matter how much money is poured into the agencies. Character counts.

Personal integrity, courage, and professionalism make the difference. Only a commission bent on holding no one responsible and reaching unanimity could have missed that.

We understand, as do most Americans, that one of our greatest strengths in defending against terrorism is the dedication and resourcefulness of those individuals who work on the frontlines.

Even before the Commission began its work, many honest and patriotic individuals from various agencies came forward with information and warnings regarding terrorism-related issues and serious problems within our intelligence and aviation security agencies.

If it were not for these individuals, much of what we know today of significant issues and facts surrounding 9/11 would have remained in the dark. These "whistleblowers" were able to put the safety of the American people above their own careers and jobs, even though they had reason to suspect that the deck was stacked against them. Sadly, it was.

Retaliation took many forms: some were ostracized; others were put under formal or informal gag orders; some were fired. The commission has neither acknowledged their contribution nor faced up to the urgent need to protect such patriots against retaliation by the many bureaucrats who tend to give absolute priority to saving face and protecting their own careers.

The Commission did emphasize that barriers to the flow of information were a primary cause for wasting opportunities to prevent the tragedy. But it skipped a basic truth.

Secrecy enforced by repression threatens national security as much as bureaucratic turf fights. It sustains vulnerability to terrorism caused by government breakdowns. Reforms will be paper tigers without a safe channel for whistleblowers to keep them honest in practice.

It is unrealistic to expect that government workers will defend the public, if they can't defend themselves. Profiles in Courage are the exception, not the rule.

Unfortunately, current whistleblower rights are a cruel trap and magnet for cynicism. The Whistleblower Protection Act has turned into an efficient way to finish whistleblowers off by endorsing termination.

No government workers have access to jury trials like Congress enacted for corporate workers after the Enron/MCI debacles.

Government workers need genuine, enforceable rights just as much to protect America's families, as corporate workers do to protect America's investments. It will take congressional leadership to fill this hole in the 9/11 Commission's recommendations.


The Commission, with its incomplete report of "facts and circumstances", intentional avoidance of assigning accountability, and disregard for the knowledge, expertise and experience of those who actually do the job, has now set about pressuring our Congress and our nation to hastily implement all its recommendations.

While we do not intend to imply that all recommendations of this report are flawed, we assert that the Commission’s list of recommendations does not include many urgently needed fixes, and further, we argue that some of their recommendations, such as the creation of an ‘intelligence czar’, and haphazard increases in intelligence budgets, will lead to increases in the complexity and confusion of an already complex and highly bureaucratic system.

Congress has been hearing not only from the commissioners but from a bevy of other career politicians, very few of whom have worked in the intelligence community, and from top-layer bureaucrats, many with vested interests in saving face and avoiding accountability.

Congress has not included the voices of the people working within the intelligence and broader national security communities who deal with the real issues and problems day-after-day and who possess the needed expertise and experience-in short, those who not only do the job but are conscientious enough to stick their necks out in pointing to the impediments they experience in trying to do it effectively.

We the undersigned, who have worked within various government agencies (FBI, CIA, FAA, DIA, Customs) responsible for national security and public safety, call upon you in Congress to include the voices of those with first-hand knowledge and expertise in the important issues at hand. We stand ready to do our part.

Respectfully,

1. Costello, Edward J. Jr., Former Special Agent, Counterintelligence, FBI

2. Cole, John M., Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist, FBI

3. Conrad, David "Mark", Retired Agent in Charge, Internal Affairs, U.S. Customs

4. Dew, Rosemary N., Former Supervisory Special Agent, Counterterrorism & Counterintelligence, FBI

5. Dzakovic, Bogdan, Former Red Team Leader, FAA

6. Edmonds, Sibel D., Former Language Specialist, FBI

7. Elson, Steve, Retired Navy Seal & Former Special Agent, FAA & US Navy

8. Forbes, David, Aviation, Logistics and Govt. Security Analysts, BoydForbes, Inc.,

9. Goodman, Melvin A., Former Senior Analyst/ Division Manager, CIA; Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy

10. Graf, Mark, Former Security Supervisor, Planner, & Derivative Classifier, Department of Energy

11. Graham, Gilbert M., Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence, FBI

12. Kleiman, Diane, Former Special Agent, US Customs

13. Kwiatkowski, Karen U., Lt. Col. USAF (ret.), Veteran Policy Analyst-DoD

14. Larkin, Lynne A., Former Operation Officer, CIA

15. MacMichael, David, Former Senior Estimates Officer, CIA

16. McGovern, Raymond L., Former Analyst, CIA

17. Pahle, Theodore J., Retired Senior Intelligence Officer, DIA

18. Sarshar, Behrooz, Retired Language Specialist, FBI

19. Sullivan, Brian F., Retired Special Agent & Risk Management Specialist, FAA

20. Tortorich, Larry J., Retired US Naval Officer, US Navy & Dept. of Homeland Security/TSA

21. Turner, Jane A., Retired Special Agent, FBI

22. Vincent, John B., Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI

23. Whitehurst, Dr. Fred, Retired Supervisory Special Agent/Laboratory Forensic Examiner, FBI

24. Wright, Ann, Col. US Army (ret.); and Former Foreign Service officer

25. Zipoli, Matthew J., Special Response Team (SRT) Officer, DOE


CC:

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Chairman Pat Roberts & Vice Chairman John D. Rockefeller

Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Chairman Orrin G. Hatch & Ranking Democratic Member Patrick Leahy

Senate Committee on Armed Services, Chairman John Warner & Ranking Member Carl Levin

Senate Committee on Governmental Affairs, Chairman Susan Collins & Ranking Member Joseph Lieberman

House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Chairman Porter J. Goss & Ranking Member Jane Harman

House Committee on the Judiciary, Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr. & Ranking Member John Conyers

House Armed Services Committee, Chairman Duncan Hunter & Ranking Member Ike Skelton

House Committee on Government Reform, Chairman Tom Davis & Ranking Member Henry A. Waxman

House Select Committee on Homeland Security, Chairman Christopher Cox & Ranking Member Jim Turner

Senator Charles Grassley

http://ny911truth.org/articles/secu...s_speak_out.htm

quote:

SE: And you see many people just turning away from these channels of mass media, and they're just turning in to alternative providers, because they just see what's happening. JH: I have another question: when the gag order was written, it had to do with "diplomatic relations." Right? SE: That is what Attorney General Ashcroft cited. JH: Are you allowed to say that it's the Saudis? SE: I cannot name any country. And I would emphasize that it's plural. I understand the Saudis have been named because fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. However, the names of people from other countries, and semi-legit organizations from other countries, to this day, have not been made public. JH: And the information that you have been gagged on has to do with that specifically. SE: Correct. And specifically with that and their ties to people here in this country today. JH: I understand why you can't say anything about this, but there are several books out about the Bush ties to the Saudis and the bin Ladens in particular. And in David Griffin's book, The New Pearl Harbor, there is a very good synopsis of the ISI, which is the Pakistani intelligence service. He shows the direct connections between the CIA, the ISI, and Mohamed Atta. He makes a very convincing case that the Pakistani ISI had been helping to plan 9/11 for a long time. I don't imagine that you are allowed to say much about that. SE: You are correct. But I can tell you that the issue, on one side, boils down to money--a lot of money. And it boils down to people and their connections with this money, and that's the portion that, even with this book, has not been mentioned to this day. Because then it starts touching some people in high places. JH: Can you explain more about what money you are talking about? SE: The most significant information that we were receiving did not come from counter-terrorism investigations, and I want to emphasize this. It came from counter-intelligence, and certain criminal investigations, and issues that have to do with money laundering operations. You get to a point where it gets very complex, where you have money laundering activities, drug related activities, and terrorist support activities converging at certain points and becoming one. In certain points - and they [the intelligence community] are separating those portions from just the terrorist activities. And, as I said, they are citing "foreign relations" which is not the case, because we are not talking about only governmental levels. And I keep underlining semi-legit organizations and following the money. When you do that the picture gets grim. It gets really ugly. http://baltimorechronicle.com/050704SibelEdmonds.shtml

F.A.A. Official Scrapped Tape of 9/11 Controllers' Statements

By MATTHEW L. WALD

Published: May 6, 2004

WASHINGTON, May 6 — At least six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners on Sept. 11, 2001, made a tape recording that same day describing the events, but the tape was destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it, the Transportation Department said in a report today.


The taping began before noon on Sept. 11 at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center, in Ronkonkoma, on Long Island, where about 16 people met in a basement conference room known as "the Bat Cave" and passed around a microphone, each recalling his or her version of the events a few hours earlier.

But officials at the center never told higher-ups of the tape's existence, and it was later destroyed by an F.A.A. official described in the report as a quality-assurance manager there. That manager crushed the cassette in his hand, shredded the tape and dropped the pieces into different trash cans around the building, according to a report made public today by the inspector general of the Transportation Department.

The tape had been made under an agreement with the union that it would be destroyed after it was superseded by written statements from the controllers, according to the inspector general's report. But the quality-assurance manager asserted that making the tape had itself been a violation of accident procedures at the Federal Aviation Administration, the report said.

The inspector general, Kenneth M. Mead, said that the officials' keeping the existence of the tape a secret and the decision by one to destroy it had not served "the interests of the F.A.A., the department or the public" and could foster suspicions among the public.

Mr. Mead had been asked by Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who is chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee, to look into how well the aviation agency had cooperated with what is widely known as the 9/11 commission, a bipartisan, independent panel investigating the terror attacks.

On the tape, the controllers, some of whom had spoken by radio to people on the planes and some who had tracked the aircraft on radar, gave statements of 5 to 10 minutes each, according to the report.

The tape's value was not clear, Mr. Mead said, because no one was sure what was on it, although the written statements given later by five of the controllers were broadly consistent with "sketchy" notes taken at the time by people in the Bat Cave. (The sixth controller who spoke on the tape did not give a written statement, apparently because that controller had not spoken to either of the planes or observed it on radar.)

One of the central questions about the events of that morning is how the F.A.A. responded to emerging clues that four planes had been hijacked. A tape made within hours of the events, as well as written statements given later, could help establish that.

A spokesman for the 9/11 commission, Al Felzenberg, said that Mr. Mead's report was "meticulous" and "came through the efforts of a very conscientious senator." He said the commission would not comment now on the content of the report but that it "does speak to some of the issues we're interested in."

The tape was made because the manager of the center believed that the standard post-crash procedure would be too slow for an event of the magnitude of 9/11. After an accident or other significant incident, according to officials of the union and the F.A.A., the controllers involved are relieved of duty and often go home; eventually they review the radar tapes and voice transmissions and give a written statement of what they had seen, heard and done.

People in the Ronkonkoma center at midday on Sept. 11 concluded that that procedure would take many hours, and that the controllers' shift was ending and after a traumatic morning, they wanted to go home.

The center manager's idea was to have the tape available overnight, in case the F.B.I. wanted something before the controllers returned to work the next day, according to people involved.

"It was never meant as a permanent record," said Mark DiPalmo, the president of the local chapter of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, who made the deal with the center manager.

He said the session was informal, and that sometimes more than one person at a time was speaking. "We sat everyone in a room, went around the room, said, `What do you remember?" Mr. DiPalmo said in an interview.

Mr. Mead's report said that it was conceivable that without that deal, the tape would not have been made at all.

The quality-assurance manager told investigators that he had destroyed the tape because he thought making it was contrary to F.A.A. policy, which calls for written statements, and because he felt that the controllers "were not in the correct frame of mind to have properly consented to the taping" because of the stress of the day, Mr. Mead reported.


Neither the center manager nor the quality-assurance manager disclosed the tape's existence to their superiors at the F.A.A. region that covers New York, nor to the agency's Washington headquarters, according to the report, which identified none of the officials or controllers by name.

Other tapes were preserved, including conversations on the radio frequencies used by the planes that day, and the radar tapes. In addition, the controllers later made written statements to the F.A.A., per standard procedure, and in this case, to the F.B.I. as well.

The quality-assurance manager destroyed the tape between December 2001 and February, 2002. By that time, he and the center manager had received an e-mail message sent by the F.A.A. instructing officials to safeguard all records and adding, "If a question arises whether or not you should retain data, RETAIN IT."

The inspector general attributed the tape's destruction to "poor judgment."

"The destruction of evidence in the government's possession, in this case an audiotape particularly during times of a national crisis, has the effect of fostering an appearance that information is being withheld from the public," the inspector general's report said. "We do not ascribe motivations to the managers in this case of attempting to cover up, and we have no indication that there was anything on the tape that would lead anyone to conclude that they had something to hide or that the controllers did not carry out their duties."

The inspector general also noted that the official who destroyed the tape had no regrets or second thoughts: "The quality-assurance manager told us that if presented with similar circumstances, he would again take the same course of action."

Mr. Mead wrote that this attitude was "especially troubling" and that supervisors should take "appropriate administrative action."

Although the matter had been referred to the Justice Department, the Mead report added, prosecutors said they had found no basis for criminal charges.

An F.A.A. spokesman, Greg Martin, said that his agency had cooperated with the 9/11 commission and that that was how the tape's existence had become known at the agency's headquarters.

"We believe it would not have added in any way to the information contained in all of the other materials that have already been provided to the investigators and the members of the 9/11 commission," he said.

Nonetheless, Mr. Martin said that "we have taken appropriate disciplinary action" against the quality-assurance manager. For privacy reasons, he said, he could not say what those actions were or identify any of the employees involved.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/n...e&ex=1399262400

Follow the money.

Follow the money.

Follow the money.



And then will you find the smoke from the gun.


But by then cognitive dissonance will blind peoples' eyes into making them walk into the holding pen...into the slaughter.

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