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| quote: | Originally posted by tecnolover
Opus, you want to know what has got me riled up??? It honestly scares me to think that ppl like you just might actually vote for this Kerry. |
Then you shouldn’t just be scared – you should be absolutely terrified. You’re new here, so I’ll let you off easy – anyone in this political forum knows I make no bones about my political affiliation. At one point in time I considered myself a moderate conservative. I voted for Clinton in ’92, Dole in ’96, and I actually contemplated on voting for Bush in ’00, but I allowed my conscience to get the better part of me and stuck with Gore instead. In lieu of the past 4 years, I have felt absolutely compelled to move further to the left than I ever thought I would. Looking back on my 4 yr. migration, I’m actually quite comfortable where I am now, and I personally feel that it is an absolute necessity to vote Democrat on the ticket, if anything else because we have moved fa,r far, way the fuck too far to the right, and I feel that has done serious damage to our country.
Our country works best when we have checks and balances in play, and by that I mean politically when there is a balance among parties in all 3 branches of our gov’t.
We don’t see that. In fact, we see nothing of the sort.
There were numerous reasons why the Republicans took over both the House AND Senate over the last 20 yrs – the public grew tired of seeing Democratic overspending and corruption taking place in our government.
If that doesn’t sound too familiar to our situation today, perhaps you should Google “Tom Delay” and “ethics” and see what you find.
So in short, one of my primary reasons for moving further to the left was for balance. But as I stated, once I got over here, well, I kinda liked how sunny it was. I leave plenty of room to move back into the middle, however. You conservatives get someone like McCain or Guliani into the office, and I might consider your party a little more (esp. McCain).
| quote: | | I have never in my life seen as bad a democratic candidate for pres. The dems have stooped to new lows this election. It honestly scares me to even imagine this character as pres. of our nation. |
Funny, I say exactly the same thing about our President and VP. I fail to understand what you mean by “stooping to new lows”, however, and I think you need to define what concerns you most about Kerry.
And Jesus, calm the fuck down, man! No need to be scared by anyone here. I’m more than willing to bet you that my fears for Bush far outweigh your fears for Kerry, but I know we’ll still be living and breathing 4 yrs. from now. Despite the fact Bush is more or less an apocalyptic Christian, I still think he’ll try to do what’s right for our country. I just think the Dems. have a much more plausible, credible answer, that’s all.
| quote: | now to answer a few questions and makes some comments...
First, Opus since when do you believe anything the Bush admin would say?? |
Not often – his credibility was shot a long time ago. I would say that it started probably after our success in Afghanistan, and his Administration hawks put set their eyes on Iraq (which they’ve eyed for many, many years – see http://www.newamericancentury.org/) I was sure as hell with him, at least partially before 9/11, and actually thought his tax cuts was the right fiscal policy then, and I was REALLY with him as nearly all Americans were post-9/11. But after our success in Afghanistan and his refusal to personally pursue Osama, well his credibility went downhill after that.
| quote: | | since they deny he was wearing a vest and that it was a wrinkle shouldn't that make you believe he is even more?? |
Just curious, you ever see a wrinkle that clearly demonstrates a perfect square with a line resembling a wire above and below that square? TWICE? I sure haven’t, but hey, ya know at this point I really don’t believe it’s terribly pertinent to present day issues. Christ man, if he was wired for those 2 (and maybe even 3) debates, the guy talkin’ in his ear should be fired because according to all the polls he lost all 3 debates.
But like I said earlier, I don’t think you know me too well yet, so just understand that I am yankin’ your chain a little here. Relax, okay? I don’t think it’s a huge issue. You ready to move on yet?
| quote: | | after all you couldn't be possibly believe the Bush admin could you? |
I mentioned what I feel about his credibility. Do I think he’s full of bullshit? Certainly not. I think he really is doing what he thinks is best for the country. But his idealism has gotten in the way of realism one too many times, and it’s time for someone who can face reality better.
| quote: | | Well in this case I wouldn't either, because it is a pres. security issue and it's none of yours or mines business. |
A “security issue” eh? Sounds familiar to pretty much all of our President’s policies, esp. when questioned. And yes, I do believe it’s the publics fucking business if our President can’t stand on the podium on his very own and go toe to toe with someone questioning his policies. Sorry if I find that slightly bothersome (notice I said “slightly”), and you’ll have to pardon me if I want to fucking question the integrity and honesty of MY PUBLIC SERVANT that serves us. We hired him, sir, and it is therefore our constitutional right to question certain actions he is doing that we may deem wrong or incorrect.
| quote: | | Personally, it didn't look like a wrinkle to me and body armour is completely believable. |
Personally, what you believe here is irrelevant and quite incorrect since the White House confirmed there was no body armour.
| quote: | Why isn't Kerry wearing any???  Hmmm.... maybe because he doesn't have anything to fear?? after all who would the terrorist love to see in power in the US more than Kerry?  |
Not only are you factually incorrect, but you seem to be quite comfortable in your misguidedness:
| quote: | The statement tells American voters that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of President Bush: "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections."
The statement said Abu Hafs al-Masri needs what it called Bush's "idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they would "wake up" the Islamic world.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114489,00.html |
Recruitment for Al Qaeda has been an all-time high, thanks much in part to our invasion into Iraq:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3746205.stm
http://www.anotheramerica.org/terrorist_recruitment.htm
and has reorganized itself in Pakistan:
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20107/
throughout the Philippines:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain645089.shtml
And Experts believe new bases have been established in Yemen, Somalia, the Bangladesh-Myanmar border, and the Pankisi Valley between Georgia and Chechnya:
http://csmonitor.com/2003/0521/p01s02-usgn.html
Of course Colin Powell had to correct himself and admit that terrorism was actually on the rise, instead of stating it has decreased:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain614786.shtml
Additionally, I’d like to ask you this one simple question – why hasn’t our President captured the man who killed nearly 3,000 innocent civilians on our soil yet? Why did he state he was just “not concerned” with this evil son of a bitch? Why did he move our troops away from hunting this man down towards Iraq, a country that posed no “grave and serious” danger to our country or our allies?
And speaking of Iraq, who’s our supposed biggest nemesis right now? Abu Musab Zarqawi, right? Hmm, well, you do realize that our President had not one, not two, but several chances of attacking and wiping out this madman. Now if this President is so great on the war on terrorism, why the fuck did he screw those chances?:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601
And I’m just curious, but do you happen to read anything outside of those conservative talking points?
| quote: | You set yourself up for that one!  |
I’ll allow the facts that I posted above speak for themselves. They’re hardly in your favor.
| quote: | | As for the cable in the tie idea eheh how could it be the second tail of tie? simple. you are looking at one photo and if his tie is turned at an angle it can look thin can't it? just like turning a piece of paper at an angle can make it look thin to. |
You still defending this? Man, this really did get to you, didn’t it?
| quote: | | Opus, I'm assuming you are a Kerry supporter right? |
Incredible how you haven’t figured that out by now.
| quote: | I'd like to know this?
How is Kerry going to fund all the things he says he's going to do domestically for this nation? Be honest here with me. |
Have you really taken a look at his plans for investing his policies? Now YOU be honest with me here. Have you actually gone to his website (www.johnkerry.com) and examined his plans in full, rather than listening to Limbaugh and Hannity flat out distort and blindly label his ideas and proposals? Be honest, sir.
| quote: | | We aren't idiots (well i'm not anyway lol). |
I haven’t stated anything that would indicate that’s how I feel about you. Perhaps I feel you’re a bit misguided and misled, but that does not equate to a lack of intelligence.
| quote: | | He says he'll roll back the tax cut Bush implemented. Ok, fine. So again I say where is going to get the money?? |
He said he’ll roll back the tax cuts for the TOP BRACKET of income earners as well as close corporate tax loopholes, but he does want to lower corporate taxes by 5% to make all our companies more competitive. Under his plan, 99 percent of American businesses and 98 percent of Americans will get a tax cut.
| quote: | | You and I both know that is bull. |
We do?
| quote: | | Kerry is your typical politician who promises lots of stuff and can't and won't deliver. |
Such as?
Funny, I have the exact same feelings about Bush. Bush himself said that he’d trim down the deficit once it started to accumulate – boy his plan really shines through now, doesn’t it?
| quote: | | If he did deliver half of those things he would end up getting impeached because he would have to break all his other promises he has made. |
You don’t get impeached, sir, for breaking promises. If that were the case, both Bush and Cheney would be gone long ago.
You really like making unsupported assertions, don’t you? How has he “screwed up”? Be specific with links.
Face reality? Well I’d say my candidate is pretty good at that. Too bad your candidate continues to have such a difficult time with it.
| quote: | | He has painted himself into that corner that all politicians try to avoid. |
Another unsupported assertion. See above.
| quote: | | Bush has been very careful what he says and promises. |
Interesting you should say that:
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com...andsecurity.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/iraq-fp.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/iraq-fp.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/economy.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/educ.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/env.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/politics.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/policy.htm
http://flipflops.compassiongate.com/other.htm
| quote: | | Look at Bush senior, he lied to the public about raising taxes and I believe that is why he lost his second election. For the record, I voted for Perot myself because Bush sen. dissapointed me and Perot seemed like the best man at the time. |
There were a great deal more problems and reasons as to why Bush Sr. lost the election. His broken promise on raising taxes was merely one of them.
| quote: | | Lets also agree here and get one thing straight-our nations economy has very little (that means teeny tinnie)to do with the president. Ok. I hope we can agreee with that. |
I agree to a certain extent – true our markets and businesses have a mind of their own. But our President’s economic policies do play a significant role in the process, as well as our Congress and spending. At present, our President has yet to veto ONE spending bill passed by our GOP led Congress.
Fiscal responsibility is completely alien to both this President and his Congress. Remember what I said about the Democratic led Congress back in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s? How do you think they received the term “tax and spend liberal”? With the exception of raising taxes, we see the exact same fiscal irresponsibility on the Hill today. It simply cannot work, and we are seeing those dramatic consequences already.
| quote: | | If you don't understand this take economics 101 sometime. |
I did, way back when. But thanks for the hot tip.
| quote: | | Tax packages are for the most part the only way a pres. effects our economy in it smallest amount. Continuing... |
I disagree:
| quote: | Data in the Administration’s own Mid-Session Budget Review indicates that the tax cuts have played a larger role than all other legislation enacted since the start of 2001 in the emergence of the current sizable budget deficit, and that the tax cuts account for the majority of the current deficit.
• The Mid-Session Budget Review, released July 30, shows that to date, the tax cuts have accounted for 57 percent of the cost of all legislation enacted since the Administration took office. The tax cuts thus have contributed more to the worsening fiscal picture than all other new government policies combined — more than the sum of the costs of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the war on terrorism, increases in homeland security, and all domestic spending increases.
• The Mid-Session Review data also show that the tax cuts account for well over half of the 2004 deficit.
• These findings, which are consistent with new CBO data released September 7, contradict claims made by a number of policymakers and activists with an ideological axe to grind who have argued that the recent tax cuts have contributed little or nothing to the deterioration of the budget outlook.
http://www.cbpp.org/8-25-04tax.htm |
You did say you took Econ 101, right?
| quote: | | Kerry, and all the wealthy upper class in USA know that they don't pay much at all in taxes. That is the absurdity of rich getting richer, poor getting poorer. |
I see. So you think it’s only logical that we have a poverty-stricken individual on the Democratic ticket fighting for our beliefs and policies then?
| quote: | | Things are not fair. They are not equal. When you have money you can afford ways to keep it too. They pay a lower percentage than everyone else because they are able to take advantage of so many tax loopholes. Until our tax code is changed his 'tax-the-people-who-make-over 200k' plan is bull@#$% he's feeding you. |
Well I agree that the tax code should be changed, which of course Bush says the same thing. That’s perplexing, however, considering he just signed a new tax bill that really complicates an already overly complex tax system. However, Kerry is not referring to the tax system here when he’s wanting to roll back the tax cuts. He’s simply trying to trim down the deficit. Does this simple roll back do it all? Of course not, but it’s a helluva lot further along than Bush has ever proposed, which by the way he seems completely flippant and dismissive of.
| quote: | | So his rollback isn't going to amount to a hill of beans and just like Bush said to make Kerry plans work he's going to end up taxing the middle class or he won't get the money he needs. Oops, but then he promised he wouldn't do that!? hmmm... what is he going to do??? nothing. absolutely nothing. |
I dunno, perhaps he has other methods of trimming down the deficit? Perhaps he has a means of putting pressure on our Congress to be a little more fiscally responsible?
Naahh, couldn’t be!
And you’ll have to forgive me for simply believing that Kerry will keep his word better than a Bush family member.
| quote: | | Concerning Iraq, LOL Kerry admits Saddam was a threat yet would have waited for UN approval?? How long do you wait? |
Uh, as long as it takes to see whether or not he had WMD?
| quote: | | Till the enemy hides everything? Or till they attack? hmm.. |
You read the Duelfer report lately? What did Saddam have to hide or attack with?
Spitballs?
| quote: | | This Kerry is anti war to the enth degree and his foreign policy would lead us into disaster at this stage of the game. |
Hmm, I guess that’s why he was so pissed off at this President for failing to go after the mother****** who actually attacked US?
| quote: | | He says he's going to build our military up. How is he gonna pay for it again? Thats kinda important don't you think? Army guys don't like working and risking their lives if they aren't going to get paid. |
You’d better tell that to your President:
http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc...ame=sr-108-2-56
http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconom.../ns01272004.cfm
http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=66014
http://www.veteransunitedforkerry.c...=article&sid=72
http://www.post-gazette.com/columni...ene0208fnp1.asp
As for paying for the new 40,000 figure, I imagine that the money going to the already stretched thin troops will likely be shifted to these new troops, which would avoid the stop-loss program, extended tours of duty, and delayed retirements of our current servicemen and women. I know that’s a strange thought and all, having enough military men and women fight a war, but don’t worry, I think once Kerry’s in office you’ll feel a little bit better about the situation.
| quote: | | Again, Kerry has trapped himself. |
Hmm, I guess you’re right. I mean, who would want to think that the President hasn’t “trapped” himself by stretching our military too thin? Who would want to believe that our President has invoked the stop-loss program, extended tours of duty, delayed retirements, and prevented enlisted personnel from leaving the service, out of mere desperation? Who would want to believe Paul Bremer and Rummy for saying that we needed more troops? I sure don’t! No way has the President “trapped himself”!
Disperse. Nothing to see here.
| quote: | | What really ticks me off is how he likes to flaunt the talk of increasing US Special forces like somehow this makes him sound like a tactical commando minded guy to the voters! Hilarious. This guy is the furthest thing from being tactically minded. |
More unsupported assertions. Explain in detail how Kerry would not be tactically minded.
| quote: | | Not to mention that the majority of US armed forces servicemen and women dislike Kerry because of his unhonorable year in vietnam http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php and how he betrayed the US military later. |
You already did mention it, and we’ve discussed the fucking idiot Smear Boaters in a number of threads. You’re welcome to join us there and try and defend those liars, if you so desire. I’m anxious to hear your points of view there. Here’s some more info. on those guys:
http://www.myleftbrain.com/docs/swift.shtml
And forgive me, yet again, but I tend to find someone who was a spokesman for those war veterans who saw and participated in atrocities taking place, all in efforts to SAVE more men and women from a losing war, based on a failed plan which both Johnson AND Nixon admitted, verses a President AND Vice President who was too fucking chickenshit to even participate and fight for their country, and instead sat on the sideline cheerleading and supporting the losing cause.
| quote: | | Yes, there were war attrocities. It was a terrible war and they were on both sides. More on theirs than on our IMO. I think with Kerry as pres. our military's morale is going to fall sharply. |
You honestly don’t think it hasn’t fallen sharply already? Where the fuck have you been?
| quote: | | Btw- it's ironic how Kerry idolizes JFK, when it was JFK who started sending our boys to vietnam, the war that Kerry so opposed later! Doesn't make sense. |
I’m beginning to think that you are somewhat lacking in intelligence. I’m sorry, but what you stated above really isn’t too difficult to figure out. JFK was opposed to Communism and the Cold War – he sent troops in to fight against that, for better or for worse. Kerry went to Vietnam to fight for his country. He did his tours, he got out, and he was extremely disheartened by not only what he saw and participated in, but what other veterans had told him and witnessed. He realized that the orders passed down by our Administrations and Pentagon at that time were wrong, and we were losing the effort as a direct consequence. So he spoke out against it, hoping to save more lives. Despite your ridiculous Limbaugh rhetoric, a great many people, including thousands of Vietnam veterans, contribute Kerry to saving their lives. My father, a middle-of-the-road Conservative, is one of them.
| quote: | | Kerry, says he's not going to pull our troops out.(btw-the anti-war must hate him for that! or maybe they aren't really anti-war afterall, but just anti-Bush in disguise.hmmmm...) |
So what? What does the anti-war people have anything to do with Kerry’s responsible Iraqi War policies? That’s like me saying that the hard-line neoconservatives warmongers are probably pissed off as hell at Bush for not invading at least 3 more countries. Big fucking deal! We’re talking about the candidates and their policies, not the extremists that may or may not support them.
| quote: | | Fine, that is understandable. We have to finish the job, but he wants to get all these other nations to help us out. Don't you think Bush wanted that too?? duh. |
I think the record of Bush essentially giving the UN a big “Fuck You” speaks loudly for itself. It’s no secret that Bush has done an absolute piss-poor job of working with other countries with Iraq. They, of course, returned the favor by giving him a paulty amount of money for support and cleanup. Unfortunately, we deserve their collective slap in our faces for that.
| quote: | | He got as much support as he could get. |
*cough* *cough*
Sorry, I just choked a little on my coffee after reading that. Anyway…
More like shot from the hip. By the way, why did he act so quickly? Why did he ignore so much counterintelligence about Saddam’s WMD and capability to produce WMD?
| quote: | | You don't sit around waiting for the whole world to support you when you are the most powerful nation on earth and you feel threatened. You take the initiative. |
What threat? They ignored all intelligence that countered their claims? Why?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/i...ner=rssuserland
http://www.americanprogress.org/sit...JRJ8OVF&b=24889
| quote: | | Diplomacy had failed with Saddam way back. Bush didn't need any authority from UN to take action. The UN bull was just global politics and PR. As for getting a stronger coalition? It didn't happen for Bush and not going to happen for Kerry either, not even France is going to step in to help their boy. enough said for now. |
Actually I think you need to say a lot more.
Diplomacy failed long ago, true, but why even bother being there in the first place? The bastard was well contained and very weakened, according to the Duelfer report, we knew as much, why take our focus off the ****** who attacked us to go after this lame duck? Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big critic of the UN too, but our approach to Iraq was extremely lacking at best, and the rest of the world knows it too.
| quote: | Fantastic job by Bush on the final debate. That was the Bush I was waiting to see! 
Vote Bush/Cheney |
Yes, Bush put on yet another face for the debate – the “smile when you’re pissed” face. Sorry to break it to you, but all polls clearly showed Kerry the winner of last night’s debate. That’s 0-3 for Bush, in case you were counting.
| quote: | | Do not vote Kerry/Edwards |
I’m truly happy to be disappointing you.
And again, welcome to the political forum.
___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
Last edited by MisterOpus1 on Oct-14-2004 at 17:29
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