quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Not to come off as an asshole, but every time Ive been to martial arts classes (a lot) its filled with a coterie of girls (who just cant fight, im sorry to shatter illusions) old people, fat people, skinny people, nerds, and just generally people who nature has decreed non-combatants. It comes down to this: People who can fight, can fight. It doesnt matter if they never have formal training or not, theyll most likely be able to kick your ass no matter what training youve had (unless you too, are a fighter) Ive met people from every school of training and ive never found one to be better.

Different schools have different goals and thus overwhelmingly different.

A majority of the schools are ran like businesses. As a business, their primary interest is making money. The 3 month green belt program. Schools with such fixed time programs are obligated to give you rank recognition whether you deserve it or not. I am highly critical of such schools because a school's primary interest should be to the student and his personal development, whatever his pace might be.

Other schools of martial arts are more sport than
fighting. Modern styles such as TKD, judo and wushu are there for enthusiasts to break wooden boards, hip throw and execute fancy aerials. They don't focus on fighting.

Still other schools focus on fighting with rules. Some karate, Brazilian Jiu-Jutsu, and mixed styles do fight but there are certain rules such as no weapons, no biting, no eye-gouging, no fish-hooking and groin attacks. Can they be used on the streets? Of course and they can be very effective but obviously there are holes in the technique.

Lastly, a small number of schools practice classical martial arts. The techniques learned are the same ones used by the Japanese and Chinese in ancient times for personal and battlefield combat. These arts are designed to end fights as soon as possible. Finding such schools are hard to find because the Cultral Revolution of China wiped out nearly all of classic chinese martial arts and the occupying forces and new Japanese government after WWII did the same. It takes a great deal of time to be proficient at effective combat compared the standard techniques taught in special forces fighting systems. I also have no doubt "non-combatants" can be taught to fight effectively under these classical styles. If the school is worth a damn, it would also teach as much philosophy as fighting.

couldn't have had my point of view represented any better, Scottaculous. I know all too well the problems buy-a-belt schools plague the martial arts world with, there are far too many of them.

I see nothing wrong with placing minimum periods of time in which a trainee can obtain a belt of ranking (to ensure they have had enough time to learn the necessary skills), but the line should be drawn there, giving someone a belt regardless of skill because they have been taking classes for a certain period of time is ridiculous.

Too many people see belts as a sign of superiority, as the crux of what their martial art is, and it couldn't be farther from the truth. What goes with a belt is simply a notification of the effort and interest spent in obtaining that level and that a certain level of respect goes with said level. That being said, everyone deserves a certain amount of respect and too often i see people waving their hips around beleiving they are superior to everyone belonging to lower belts. Every once in awhile these people need to be humbled and taught a small lesson in humility.

I have a story about this, choose whether to read or not:

Not too long ago we had a new member join our dojo, he had moved to Ottawa from Montréal where another JKA affiliated dojo was located. He's a 1st degree black and even during simple exercices and light sparring you could tell his technique and control were poor. However he spoke down and treated poorly people of lower belts and practiced with a cocky air about him. Eagerness is one thing, but arrogance is completely unwarranted. So anyways, one particular session involved focussing on freestyle sparring and he was paired with myself (an orange belt, several rankings below 1st degree black). He immidiately discredited me as being inferior and gave little to no respect my way, not even bowing properly. As the sparring began he started to "play" with me as he would believe, using up his own breath and energy in effort to make himself look professional and feign/trick me out (large noobie mistake). As there was the enevitable exchange of blows he showed absolutely no control, putting full force into me with each punch (i understand that people need to take punches in martial arts, and i can, i have no problem being knocked about and am experienced with it, however the point here is to learn control, to put out a full power/full speed hit and simply tap your oppenents gi, recoiling the strike as soon as light contact is made). Anyways as the sparring progressed for a bit longer (inside a minute, he was looking rather spunk and arrogant, and as he went for a head level side thrust kick, my judo years revisited me and i promptly dodged the blow, swept out his supporting leg, and as he came down with the kicking leg to support himself, i used a hip throw and brought him quickly to the ground. After this he was surprised and dazed, and after eventually getting up, proceeded to whine and complain about the use of my throw in shotokan kumite (throws are completely legal). After being waved off by our sensei and myself given the 1/2 point, the sparring continued. Within the next two minutes he scored a 1/2 point and then myself another shortly after finishing the bout. Much to his shock and dismay a much younger (and supposedly inferior) orange belt had defeated a seemingly invincible 1st degree black. After the dojo etiquette had finished and i was aiding in sweeping the floor, he approached me and we talked for a few minutes about what had happened, me explaining that i had some experience in judo where i had refined many throwing and grappling techniques. Now he appears to treat many people in the dojo with the respect and admiration they deserve and although this may not seem to be such a big deal to many of you, i'd like to thing i made a difference by humbling someone who could have potentially injured others while carrying around false bravado and arrogance.

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cheers

Last edited by d0uble h3lix on Oct-12-2004 at 05:21

quote:

Originally posted by d0uble h3lix couldn't have had my point of view represented any better, Scottaculous. I know all too well the buy-a-belt dojos, they need to go.

Thanks, I really liked your points too.


A nice site for information about martial arts.
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/a...-faq/index.html

quote:

Originally posted by Scottaculous Lastly, a small number of schools practice classical martial arts. The techniques learned are the same ones used by the Japanese and Chinese in ancient times for personal and battlefield combat. These arts are designed to end fights as soon as possible. Finding such schools are hard to find because the Cultral Revolution of China wiped out nearly all of classic chinese martial arts and the occupying forces and new Japanese government after WWII did the same. It takes a great deal of time to be proficient at effective combat compared the standard techniques taught in special forces fighting systems. I also have no doubt "non-combatants" can be taught to fight effectively under these classical styles. If the school is worth a damn, it would also teach as much philosophy as fighting.

You wouldn't happen to know of any good ones around Atlanta then, would you? (preferrably around gwinnett/85 ish area, but anywhere is cool).

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NEW MIX [Feb/March 2008]

a few are listed in the URL he just posted, good place to start looking..

___________________
cheers

The only way you'll get into a fight is by not thinking. I've never been in a fight because when presented with the many opportunities to do so, i've always thought too much. My theory is that if you actually think about what you're doing you will never get into a fight. In other words, fighting is stupidity caused by stupidity.

Actually I shouldn't say my theory, since many people have said the same thing before me.

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

Last edited by Radagast on Oct-12-2004 at 07:42

Studied a Tae Kwon Do based martial art for 8 years and have an official WTF TKD blackbelt. Stopped a bit before I moved to Montreal and debating taking up something similar again, most likely a kung fu.

(haven't read anything in this thread btw so forgive me if I've touched on topics that have already been discussed).

World Tae Kwon Do Federation style Tae Kwon Do is more geared towards Sport than it is to actual effective fighting style; with flashy kicks and other generally ineffective manoeuvers if you're in a bar fight. Fortunately my master had a diverse martial arts background, starting off as a greco-roman wrestler, moving into karate for 7 years, and then taking up TKD full time thereafter and loving it. He was able to effectively blend the dynamism of taekwondo with the effectiveness of other martial arts, while stressing that TKD competitions were something completely different than a real life street fight. Fortunately, I haven't been in a street fight since starting (even though, like many others, that was the purpose I started =P).

After he spent 4 months at a shaolin temple he brought back so many awesome moves that I think, were I to take up another martial art, it would definitely be a form of kungfu.

Will add more to this conversation later; too goddamn tired atm.

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"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Not to come off as an asshole, but every time Ive been to martial arts classes (a lot) its filled with a coterie of girls (who just cant fight, im sorry to shatter illusions) old people, fat people, skinny people, nerds, and just generally people who nature has decreed non-combatants.

Youre pretty right about that, but i did see some girls who could seriously woop some ass ( one of them with a spear, damn she was fast and furious ). But alot of those people are there indeed. In thaiboxing i never really saw much of em, old people then. ( i did see alot of nersds ). But in wushu alot more. But because of the nature of the training and the toughness my sifu requires, these people drop out VERY fast. From all the new groups, after 3 months they are already at 50% of the original amount, after a year, only 10% or something still goes on.

About that fighter thing, i think you are right. Maybe its arrogance, but i think myself as a fighter. I always loved the thrill of combat, but also the neccesity ( sp? ) of it most of the time. I almost joined up with the BBE, thats the dutch anti hostage/terrorist team, but my left eye isnt as sharp as my right. In normal sight, i have no problems. But when i close my right eye. My left eye sees very blurry. Anyway, those guys had upgraded their standards. And physically i was in, mentally, i was in. But my eyesight was the problem. Couldn't enter because of that. Bastards.

anyway, i really think your nature, genes etc and your love for martial arts are connected.

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quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy i didnt read it but i saw a she in there. damn bitches

quote:

Originally posted by nrjizer You wouldn't happen to know of any good ones around Atlanta then, would you? (preferrably around gwinnett/85 ish area, but anywhere is cool).

I am currently studying budo at a Marietta dojo. The techniques I practice are under, but not limited to, the Bujinkan budo taijutsu (ninjutsu) system under our grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei. Here is the website: www.kobudoatlanta.com I can tell you more about it, if you like.

A bit of advice. In the past I have studied isshin-ryu karate, tkd and more bujinkan budo taijutsu in NY. I have come to the realization that not all schools, even under the same system, are the same. It was surprising concept in an organization as rigid as ninjutsu. If you or anyone is serious about training I would put a lot of effort in picking the right teacher.

quote:

Originally posted by 6iki_Snake I almost joined up with the BBE, thats the dutch anti hostage/terrorist team, but my left eye isnt as sharp as my right. In normal sight, i have no problems. But when i close my right eye. My left eye sees very blurry. Anyway, those guys had upgraded their standards. And physically i was in, mentally, i was in. But my eyesight was the problem. Couldn't enter because of that. Bastards. anyway, i really think your nature, genes etc and your love for martial arts are connected.

im assuming you were in the military or a paramilitary force in order to qualify for testing to get into the BBE or Royal Dutch Marines? if you were asked to make an attempt at joining either of these elite units at your age (by your profile you're 19) then that is very impressive, at the same time very hard to believe.


personally i think its a 50/50 split of nature/nurture for what makes a good fighter or martial artist, while you are born with some built-in ideals and desires, many of them are determined by your experience with life, and you can change or make allowances for many disadvantages you were born with (physically, mentally, etc). just my two cents..

quote:

Originally posted by Scottaculous If you or anyone is serious about training I would put a lot of effort in picking the right teacher.

this couldn't be closer to the truth, just as in academics, a good teacher can truly make what you study shine and in turn, allow for you to learn and develop skills more efficiently. whatever martial art or school you go to, the teaching you recieve is the most important aspect of your future training (other than your attitude and effort, that is) That being said, it's a very wise move to consider who is teaching rather than who is attending certain clubs.

___________________
cheers

quote:

Originally posted by d0uble h3lix personally i think its a 50/50 split of nature/nurture for what makes a good fighter or martial artist, while you are born with some built-in ideals and desires, many of them are determined by your experience with life, and you can change or make allowances for many disadvantages you were born with (physically, mentally, etc). just my two cents..

Very possibly so... but this is, once again, assuming that the measure of a 'good' Martial Artist is his ability to fight somebody. Which, I believe, is not necessarily true - it sometimes takes a lot more skill to not fight somebody

But damn is it cool to be able to do this:

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.