Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Explosives disappear...
Pages (11): « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
sensorium
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location:

So the amount of explosives is not accurate. Okay.

This got out of control, a bit. The timing is bad. Elections are just around the corner. It is safe to say, whatever your political affiliation might be, that explosives are out there in the hands of the wrong people. But maybe they really did disappear/vanished, so we don't have to worry about that.

Don't play the blame game at this stage. Little is accomplished in blaming a certain organization/party/etc. Everyone has already chosen his/her candidate by now. Maybe I misunderstood some of the posts. If that's the case, I apologize.

But I still want to know where the explosives are.


___________________

Old Post Oct-28-2004 07:17  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for sensorium Click here to Send sensorium a Private Message Add sensorium to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=204304


Indeed that is interesting. However, the IAEA reports still account for the 194 tons of HMX explosives. And taking what we know from reports on the scene of:

quote:

thousands of vials of white powder, packed three to a box
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...4¬Found=true


Which was later determined to be explosives:

quote:

A senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the powder was believed to be explosives. The finding would be consistent with the plant's stated production capabilities in the field of basic raw materials for explosives and propellants.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/n...readiness01.htm


And given the fact that RDX and HMX are white powders:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...-nitramines.htm

And that former weapons inspector David Kay thinks that the weapons were taken after the invasion:

quote:

DAVID KAY, FORMER CHIEF U.S. WEAPONS INSPECTOR:

And I'm afraid we're into a zone of which we won't know definitively what happened. We do know that the U.N. certified in early March that the explosives were there. We know that by May, when the 75th Exploitation Task Force went in, they were not there. There's a gap of about three weeks, two and a half weeks, before the war took place until a month after the war took place and we simply don't know what happened.

I must say, I find it hard to believe that a convoy of 40 to 60 trucks left that facility prior to or during the war, and we didn't spot it on satellite or UAV. That is, because it is the main road to Baghdad from the south, was a road that was constantly under surveillance. I also don't find it hard to believe that looters could carry it off in the dead of night or during the day and not use the road network.

I saw many Iraqi facilities in which they came by pickup truck and constantly -- it's amazing to see whole buildings disappear at the hands of looters who are not organized, who do not have heavy equipment. But I also think we ought to put it in perspective. We're talking about 400 tons of high explosives. It would be a great tool in the hands of insurgents and terrorists. But that's a country that is awash with tens of thousands of tons of explosives that have been used now for well over a year against the coalition forces there.

Iraq is not short of explosives. The insurgents are not short of explosives.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRI.../27/wbr.01.html


Whether it be 380 tons or just under 200 tons, it was still gross negligence to allow such looting to happen particularly given specific IAEA warnings.

However, let's see how the specifics of this abcnews report pans out.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Oct-28-2004 14:11  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
surferfb
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Berlin, Germany

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ves_pentagon_dc

Check that out.

quote:

The first U.S. military unit to reach the site in Iraq where U.N. officials say 377 tons of high explosives are missing did not carry out a hunt for such material, the unit's commander said on Wednesday.

Col. Dave Perkins, then the commander of the 2nd Brigade of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, said the immediate concern when his troops reached the Al Qaqaa site on April 3, 2003, was to defeat a couple of hundred Iraqi troops who were firing from the compound as the Americans surged toward Baghdad [...]

Perkins also said it was "very highly improbable" that enemy forces could have trucked out such a huge amount of explosives in the weeks after U.S. forces first arrived there, considering the high level of U.S. military presence and how clogged the roads around the site were with U.S. convoys.


When you couple that with the previous article I posted it makes a pretty damning case. Even if the explosives were moved by Saddam, the fact that no attempt was made to secure them is just an example of the incompetance that went into planning this war.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by davedresden
oh my fucking god i die,
dave

Old Post Oct-28-2004 14:51  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for surferfb Click here to Send surferfb a Private Message Add surferfb to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0



Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

quote:
Originally posted by tecnolover
Is that per capita? can you give a source please?

thanx.


http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview...ml/00046149.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/153988.stm
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm#murd
http://www.obv.org.uk/europe/eu20030702a.htm

That's what I got from a quick google search. If you want to make sure, get UN's statistical catalogue and reference book at
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/pubs/gesgrid.asp?id=261


___________________
1+1=10

Old Post Oct-28-2004 17:07  Croatia
Click Here to See the Profile for DrUg_Tit0 Click here to Send DrUg_Tit0 a Private Message Add DrUg_Tit0 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2167933.stm

No inspectors present in Iraq until September of 2002.

Old Post Oct-28-2004 17:30  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

Well lookey lookey ... what do we have here?











quote:

A 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS crew in Iraq shortly after the fall of Saddam Hussein was in the area where tons of explosives disappeared, and may have videotaped some of those weapons.

The missing explosives are now an issue in the presidential debate. Democratic candidate John Kerry is accusing President Bush of not securing the site they allegedly disappeared from. President Bush says no one knows if the ammunition was taken before or after the fall of Baghdad on April 9, 2003 when coalition troops moved in to the area.

Using GPS technology and talking with members of the 101st Airborne Division, 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS has determined the crew embedded with the troops may have been on the southern edge of the Al Qaqaa installation, where the ammunition disappeared. The news crew was based just south of Al Qaqaa, and drove two or three miles north of there with soldiers on April 18, 2003.

During that trip, members of the 101st Airborne Division showed the 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS news crew bunker after bunker of material labelled "explosives." Usually it took just the snap of a bolt cutter to get into the bunkers and see the material identified by the 101st as detonation cords.


"We can stick it in those and make some good bombs." a soldier told our crew.

Soldiers who took a 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS crew into bunkers on April 18 said some of the boxes uncovered contained proximity fuses.

There were what appeared to be fuses for bombs. They also found bags of material men from the 101st couldn't identify, but box after box was clearly marked "explosive."

In one bunker, there were boxes marked with the name "Al Qaqaa", the munitions plant where tons of explosives allegedly went missing.

Once the doors to the bunkers were opened, they weren't secured. They were left open when the 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS crew and the military went back to their base.


"We weren't quite sure what were looking at, but we saw so much of it and it didn't appear that this was being secured in any way," said photojournalist Joe Caffrey. "It was several miles away from where military people were staying in their tents".

Officers with the 101st Airborne told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS that the bunkers were within the U.S. military perimeter and protected. But Caffrey and former 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS Reporter Dean Staley, who spent three months together in Iraq, said Iraqis were coming and going freely.

"At one point there was a group of Iraqis driving around in a pick-up truck,"Staley said. "Three or four guys we kept an eye on, worried they might come near us."



On Wednesday, 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS e-mailed still images of the footage taken at the site to experts in Washington to see if the items captured on tape are the same kind of high explosives that went missing in Al Qaqaa. Those experts could not make that determination.

The footage is now in the hands of security experts to see if it is indeed the explosives in question.
http://www.kstptv5.com/article/stor...23.html?cat=64&


I love it when I hit jackpot.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Oct-28-2004 17:31  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by surferfb
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ves_pentagon_dc

Check that out.



When you couple that with the previous article I posted it makes a pretty damning case. Even if the explosives were moved by Saddam, the fact that no attempt was made to secure them is just an example of the incompetance that went into planning this war.

3rd ID was on their way to Bahgdad. they were followed up by the 101st days later. we turned those two highways that lead in and out on Lykityra (whatever) into a military conga line for weeks after that. you want to blame someone blame the Turks for re-nigging at the last minute and not letting the 4th ID to sweep in from the north and taking some pressure off of the 3rd ID who had to bring it all from the south by themselves.

lets face it that shit was being systematically removed by a coordinated effort from Saddams military and possibly the Russians for months prior the invasion.

Old Post Oct-28-2004 17:43  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for Q5echo Click here to Send Q5echo a Private Message Add Q5echo to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
NiteKiD
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2002
Location: houston TX

i read something on msnbc.com late last night that said a Russian newspaper said Russia removed the ammo from Iraq before the war. It was not suggestive but very definitive that they did. It was a very vague article but it was on the front page. The article is no longer there which means 1 of 2 possibilities:

1) it was a bunk news source
2) theyre still verifying it

just for all your info....

Old Post Oct-28-2004 17:54  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for NiteKiD Click here to Send NiteKiD a Private Message Add NiteKiD to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
speedracer_mec
DeepHouse & Progressive



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Greece, where the good progressive comes from.

quote:

Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms


By Bill Gertz
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times has learned.
John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, said in an interview that he believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad.

"The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the Iraqis. The others were transportation units."
Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the Russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration.
Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said.
The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, Mr. Shaw said.
The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said.
Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment.
The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the material.
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon said in a statement yesterday.
A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's 75th Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in the past by the IAEA.
The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of explosives from the facility after April 6.
"The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," the statement said.
The statement also said that the material may have been removed from the site by Saddam's regime.
According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March and noted that the seals were not broken.
It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in March. The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began March 20, 2003.
A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through Syria.
The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said.
A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign supplier of weaponry, he said.
However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," Mr. Shaw said.
The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the country.
Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 arms depots.
The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, and possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said.
Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up a "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq.
The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official said.
Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European nations, he said.
"Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian border," the defense official said.
Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of military units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank parts and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said.
The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official said.
Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of military industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003.
The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck convoys for the weapons removal, the official said.
Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing.
The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making military "plastic" high explosive.
Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on what happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

Heres more info for the post above

Last edited by speedracer_mec on Oct-28-2004 at 18:14

Old Post Oct-28-2004 17:55 
Click Here to See the Profile for speedracer_mec Click here to Send speedracer_mec a Private Message Add speedracer_mec to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by speedracer_mec
Heres more info for the post above


Interesting story, except it reminds me of the Niger yellowcake uranium story. Does anyone else spot the logical flaw in that official's statement?

quote:

Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
"That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."


So it's impossible for it to disappear ... therefore if it did disappear it must have happened before we got there? Huh? How the hell does he exclude it happening while we were there, when there were plenty of first hand accounts of it not being monitored closely? Furthermore, he bases his entire analysis off of, "two European intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the russian-Iraqi weapons collaboration." Riiigghttt ... well name the intelligence agencies and let's see the evidence.

As a matter of fact, I have a better idea ... the official said the site was monitored closely because it was such an important weapons site right? Well here were the photos presented by powell at the UN:




The first photo:

POWELL: At this ballistic missile site, on November 10, we saw a cargo truck preparing to move ballistic missile components. At this biological weapons related facility, on November 25, just two days before inspections resumed, this truck caravan appeared, something we almost never see at this facility, and we monitor it carefully and regularly.

The second photo:

POWELL: At this ballistic missile facility, again, two days before inspections began, five large cargo trucks appeared along with the truck-mounted crane to move missiles. We saw this kind of house cleaning at close to 30 sites.

So naturally I'm sure the Pentagon was monitoring one of the largest weapons site in Iraq before the war right? So let's see the satellite photos of the Russian truck convoys that moved the weapons.

Here is a satellite photo of Al Qaqaa:



If you look at the southeast portion of the photo we can see that those are storage sites ... hmmmm and the journalist crew said they were at the southern edge of Al Qaqaa and they have video proof of explosives present at the time the US troops were present??? I'm sorry but the washington times is going to have to do better than that.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Oct-28-2004 18:56  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

Tee hee, I'm just lovin' this exposure right now. You think Rove ever saw this comin'?

Surprise Carl!

The conservatives are in the most incredible spin mode I have ever seen! You really need to be careful when you start drumming up excuses - I mean first we had Guliani come out and put the blame solely on the troops. And now we have both Bill Kristol from the Weekly Standard and Conservative talk show host Laura Ingram shifting all blame on the troops as well:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200410280003

It's really, REALLY difficult to escape the truth:

quote:
The Second Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division arrived outside the site on April 10, under the command of Col. Joseph Anderson. The brigade had been ordered to move quickly to Baghdad because of civil disorder there after Mr. Hussein's government fell on April 9.

They gathered at Al Qaqaa, about 30 miles south, simply as a matter of convenience, Colonel Anderson said in an interview this week. He said that when he arrived at the site - unaware of its significance - he saw no signs of looting, but was not paying close attention.

Because he thought the brigade would be moving on to Baghdad within hours, Al Qaqaa was of no importance to his mission, he said, and he was unaware of the explosives that international inspectors said were hidden inside.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/27/politics/27bomb.html


Oh, say Occ, did you see Clarke handing Guiliani and Bush their collective ASSES in his response?:

quote:
"For President Bush to send Rudolph Giuliani out on television to say that the 'actual responsibility' for the failure to secure explosives lies with the troops is insulting and cowardly.'

"The President approved the mission and the priorities. Civilian leaders tell military leaders what to do. The military follows those orders and gets the job done. This was a failure of civilian leadership, first in not telling the troops to secure explosives and other dangerous materials, and second for not providing sufficient troops and sufficient equipment for troops to do the job."

"President Bush sent our troops to war without sufficient body armor, without a sound plan and without sufficient forces to accomplish the mission. Our troops are performing a difficult mission with skill, bravery and determination. They deserve a commander in chief who supports them and understands that the buck stops in the Oval Office, not one who gets weak knees and shifts blame for his mistakes."


This just turned into a pretty damn good week after all.



P.S. Why does the conservatives hate our troops?


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Oct-28-2004 20:06  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for MisterOpus1 Click here to Send MisterOpus1 a Private Message Add MisterOpus1 to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Tee hee, I'm just lovin' this exposure right now. You think Rove ever saw this comin'?

Surprise Carl!

The conservatives are in the most incredible spin mode I have ever seen! You really need to be careful when you start drumming up excuses - I mean first we had Guliani come out and put the blame solely on the troops. And now we have both Bill Kristol from the Weekly Standard and Conservative talk show host Laura Ingram shifting all blame on the troops as well:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200410280003

It's really, REALLY difficult to escape the truth:



Oh, say Occ, did you see Clarke handing Guiliani and Bush their collective ASSES in his response?:



This just turned into a pretty damn good week after all.



P.S. Why does the conservatives hate our troops?


There is simply no system of accountability in the Bush administration. Name one person who has gotten fired for any of these fuckups??? No I take that back, the only time accountability factors into anything is if you disagree with the administration. Then you are properly shown the door. I personally know of 3 people working in government. One in dept of homeland security, one in ofheo , and the other in the NSA. They ALL tell me the culture is so goddamned lazy and the solution to every problem is to hire more people or consultants. My what an efficient government .


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Oct-28-2004 20:16  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for occrider Click here to Send occrider a Private Message Add occrider to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Explosives disappear...
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (11): « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackWhat's the add-on to 'For an Angel'??? Or: Kristina and Julia's milksong [2005] [0]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackLawnchair Generals - Tell You Something (Else Mix) [2004]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:53.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!