You can safely remove fifth from 9th chords. You can also remove 7th or 9th from 13th chords, 7th and fifth from 11th chords etc.. depending on the effect you want to achieve. You cannot remove the 3rd from 9th chord (despite the clashing).

Also, when using 9th or 11th chords, you can leave root and maybe the third in lower octave and use closed voicing for rest of the notes in the upper octave. Talking about pads etc here, for everything else you can use your bassline to define tonic of the chord, and simply use rest of the chords notes with some suspense/passing tones to write your riffs, hooks and melodies.

Closed voicing is such voicing where you try to keep the range of notes minimal to fit your progression (usually not bigger than one octave).

oh wow, thanks for the long replies...i'll get on that as soon as possible...

and what about chord progressions... a song has to be written in more than just one chord...but how do you do it when you are using minor chords? i've been looking at the chord wheel with the circle of fourths and fifths...but the root keys in the circle are major...and the associated notes that fit well with that root key are all from the root key's major scale. so is there a wheel to help me...or can you just figure that you can change up the root key to be a minor key and then build chord progressions that way by switching up the associated key's... for example...changing c major to c minor would change the iii note which establshes some chords that would go well with chords from I.

thanks for any helpful reply.

quote:

Originally posted by DC76 Chords are interesting things You can experiment a lot with them.

Jesus that's a lot of information to process. I can see you've put a lot of thought into this - for people who can play the piano/keyboard, my favourite method is just to improvise for a bit, and keep whatever sounds good.

Plus you're going to intrinsically avoid those "oversize" chords that way, because if it's oversized, you won't be able to play it.

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^Improv is how I came up with my classical compositions in the first place Usually after about 3 weeks of expanding on a sound or chord I get in my head, I have a full-blown tune in my head.

I'm actually re-transcribing compositions electronically with Logic now... some of them come out sounding rather interesting

Oh, and about that last bit, not only would you not be able to play them, but even if you had umpteen fingers to be able to, it would still be complete and utter cacophony.

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Here are some lead ideas from guitar.

first, the scales

Scale Start Note
I II III IV V VI VII VIII (Descending)
Ionian C B A G F E D C
Dorian D C B A G F E D
Phrygian E D C B A G F E
Lydian F E D C B A G F
Mixolydian G F E D C B A G
Aeolian A G F E D C B A
Locrian B A G F E D C B

Medieval Modes
Scale Start Note
I II III IV V VI VII VIII (Ascending)
Ionian C D E F G A B C Modern Major
Dorian D E F G A B C D
Phrygian E F G A B C D E
Lydian F G A B C D E F
Mixolydian G A B C D E F G
Aeolian A B C D E F G A Modern Minor
Locrian B C D E F G A B

----
lead ideas:

One way to play a lead is play 4 notes in order for a scale, starting at the tonic (or I note, or the key you are in). Next play 4 notes in order again, but start at the next note up or down in the scale. Then do it again starting from what would be the 3rd note in the scale.
1 2 3 4, 2 3 4 5, 3 4 5 6

Next, do the same thing, but use two different scales and alternate between them. For example Aeolian & Phrygian:
A B C D, E F G A, B C D E, F G A B
continue until you reach the tonic or I note in the next octave. If you do this with 16th or 32nd notes over in sync with your cord progression it will produce 'fireworks'. Jimmy Page would do this.

Or three notes can be used, but the 3rd note comes back down the scale rather than up it:
1 2 1, 2 3 2, 3 4 3,
This could also alternate between two scales like above.

Yet another way to play lead is to play the notes of a chord one at a time, walking up and/or down in pitch.

It may help to think of lead as a conversation, or call and response (from blues/rock). Or variation on a theme.

I know I will be flamed for this, but at the root of ALL popular music, including trance, is the I IV V chord progression. I resolves, IV has tension, V has A LOT of tension. In the key of E these are E, A, and B. E is the tonic, root, resolving. A variation on these chords is the relative minor. The relative minor is a tone below the key you are in and is also minor. The relative minor of B would be G# Minor. You can apply this to what I described above, and alternate your 4 note scale figures between the main key and relative minor.
There is also the relative major, that is a tone and a half ABOVE the key you are in. So the relative major of E would be G. Apply this to the alternating lead as well.

So now you have 9 keys to play in:
Standard, relative minor (below), relative major (above)
I IV V
C F G (key of C)
D# G# A# (relative major)
Am Em Fm (relative minor)
[m means minor. # means sharp -- a half tone up in pitch]


A cool chord is the "Hendrix Chord" which is a Dominant 7#9 chord. Try playing around with it, or making a lead based on it.

You can create tention by playing lead half a tone up from the key of the song/current chord. So if the key is C, do the lead in C#.

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Last edited by syk0 on Jul-20-2005 at 17:14

quote:

Originally posted by syk0 A variation on these chords is the relative minor. The relative minor is a tone below the key you are in and is also minor. The relative minor of B would be A minor. You can apply this to what I described above, and alternate your 4 note scale figures between the main key and relative minor. There is also the relative major, that is a tone and a half ABOVE the key you are in. So the relative major of E would be G. Apply this to the alternating lead as well. So now you have 9 keys to play in: Standard, relative minor (below), relative major (above) I IV V C F G (key of C) D# G# A# (relative major) Bm Em Fm (relative minor) [m means minor. # means sharp -- a half tone up in pitch] A cool chord is the "Hendrix Chord" which is a Dominant 7#9 chord. Try playing around with it, or making a lead based on it. You can create tention by playing lead half a tone up from the key of the song/current chord. So if the key is C, do the lead in C#.

I don't know waht crazy shit u get taught in America but the relative minor of B is G# Minor, and A minor is the relative minor of C. I dunno where this "standard" comes from. There is Major, and Minor. Fin.




As i have said before in this thread, trance music is generally stuck between major and minor, leaning towards the minor. In classical music, in minor keys the 7th note is flattened. This does not normally happen in trance and is what gives it that major/minor confusion that sounds lush.

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messytechie, thanks for the correction!

I learned that on guitar, and would just move a bar chord or scale up three frets or down two frets and make the chord a minor. It is hard for me to translate it to keyboards or a sequencer. But i like the sound of the relative minor very much.

Your graphic helps a lot. Hopefuly people con figure out what I am trying ot say

I hope those ideas I post can still be of use to some.

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Last edited by syk0 on Jul-20-2005 at 17:16

For chords, all you have to do to go from the major to the relative minor is raise the fifth a full tone.

C E G (Cmaj) => C E A (Amin)

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quote:

Originally posted by DC76 ^Improv is how I came up with my classical compositions in the first place Usually after about 3 weeks of expanding on a sound or chord I get in my head, I have a full-blown tune in my head. I'm actually re-transcribing compositions electronically with Logic now... some of them come out sounding rather interesting Oh, and about that last bit, not only would you not be able to play them, but even if you had umpteen fingers to be able to, it would still be complete and utter cacophony.

Well, I must say it's nice to see some other musicians on here... seems like most of the forum is obsessed with "sound design" and doesn't have patience for silly ideas like original melodies or chord progressions.

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2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Well, I must say it's nice to see some other musicians on here... seems like most of the forum is obsessed with "sound design" and doesn't have patience for silly ideas like original melodies or chord progressions.

Nothing has changed. :P

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

quote:

Originally posted by DC76 You bet they are Chords are interesting things You can experiment a lot with them. One way to avoid oversized chords is to merely chop off any notes from the bottom of the chord once you get up to four. I do it all the time. It's a habit I got into from playing the organ Take the C range for example: Cmaj = C E G Cmin = C Eb G Csus2 = C D G C2 = C D E G (Debussy liked chords like these) Csus2 = C D G Caug = C E Ab Caug7 (also written C7+5) = C E Ab Bb (I conjecture that Caug6 is rare, it sounds better with an A bass note as the A minor major seventh chord) C6 = C E G A (which is also Amin7 - the sixth chord of any major will be the seventh of its corresponding minor) Csus7 C7 = C E G Bb Cmaj7 = C E G B Cdim = C Eb Gb (aka F#) Cdim7 = C Eb Gb A (which for the record is also Adim7, Gbdim7 and Ebdim7) Now pay attention here... this is where the shortening process begins. C9 = D E G Bb C11 = D F G Bb (effectively, a Gmin7) (C E G Bb D F is the full chord) C13 = D E A Bb C15 (I think) = D F A Bb (the full chord would be this big honkin mess C E G Bb D F A C#) A full C9add13 is missing an F from a full C13 chord, but it isn't added in the organ chord because it sounds like crap in one big smooshed-in conglomerate like that. Hell, if you got a chord to go high enough, it'd cover all your basic 12 tones... hard on the fingers and the ears... Plus you can mess around with combinations Csus4add2 = C D F G (also a Gsus7) Csus4-2 = I LOVE this chord. It's a little dissonant, but not quite cacophonous, if used properly... C C# F G Csus7-5 = C F F# Bb Csus7+5 = C F Ab Bb C7-5 C E F# Bb C7+5 see above The list goes on... as long as they're used correctly, they'll sound fine. A C15-C13, C13-9 combo can sound quite beautiful, actually I think 11th chords were the most complicated I ever used in trance, though. I may have pulled out a suspended fourth with added flattened second, or two, as well.

reference

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quote:

Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Well, I must say it's nice to see some other musicians on here... seems like most of the forum is obsessed with "sound design" and doesn't have patience for silly ideas like original melodies or chord progressions.

but there's no such thing as an original chord progression and melodies are what's killing trance, didn't you get the memo?