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Originally posted by stren I don't really understand what you mean. If I support Yuschenko, that doesn't mean I can't use the word democracy as you put it, because I believe it is both "benifitial for my country", AND democratic at the same time.

Simply because of 2 simple reasons:

• Demagogy: Claiming the elections were unfair because of Russia, and the "Poison conspiracy" are traces of demagogy in the Ukrainian situation. These are two different things. One's not being chosen because of his ideals, but because of emotional manipulation.
  
• The "Outsider" factor: How can you claim for democracy if you're not a citizen? The citizens are the ones who vote and must choose whether they're happy with the system. Even if there are loads os demonstrations, that's because of the blatantly obvious fact that whoever turns out to be the chosen one, he'll face an opposition of more 40% of the country.
  
  Think of the recent American elections. Kerry had a massive support from people who weren't American citizens, simply because if Kerry were elected, they believed they'd be in a safer situation. But, would it be the best choice for America? Did Americans feel the necessary leadership from Kerry to rule the country?
  
  Even if I feared for Bush's election because his misleading crusade against terrorism, I wouldn't support any foreigner to decide what's better for my country, hence I should respect others' decision as well.
  

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Lira, you are missing something, all the observers who was in the country said that the election was not fair. there are huge protests in the country for the right of an democratic election (of course most people there are pro Yuschenko, but the main thing they fight for is democracy)! these kinds of things does NOT happend just because the US/EU is in favor of it... And of course the EU/US will encourage such things as protecting democracy, that is what we believe in!

the votes were rigged, and it has been confirmed not only by EU and the US but by the ukrainian supreme court...

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Originally posted by Lira By the way, Cal, I said "Slovo" as a joke

Hehe, that explains it, I was kinda looking at that and was...wtf? Kakvo slovo?

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Originally posted by St_Andrew Lira, you are missing something, all the observers who was in the country said that the election was not fair. there are huge protests in the country for the right of an democratic election (of course most people there are pro Yuschenko, but the main thing they fight for is democracy)! these kinds of things does NOT happend just because the US/EU is in favor of it... And of course the EU/US will encourage such things as protecting democracy, that is what we believe in!

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Originally posted by stren the votes were rigged, and it has been confirmed not only by EU and the US but by the ukrainian supreme court...

I'm aware of it, but I'm not naïve enough to think Yanukovich is the villain of the piece, as if he strictly played by the rules. It's much more complicated than that.

I recall reading on BBC, when the commotion had just started, that Yuschenko was involved in some irregularities (if I could only find that article). I don't think that's hard to believe (both from Yanukovich and Yuschenko), because this wouldn't be something new in the history of politics (in fact, wasn't Bush elected under suspicious circunstances in 2000? This is not a rhetorical question, by the way). If it had happened in Madagasgar, probably there wouldn't be much (if any) attention from the media.

This has nothing to do with democracy whatsoever. Take a look on the map and see where Ukraine is located. In fact, have you seen what the regional results were?



Ukraine is divided by the US/EU influenced West and an East (and South) influenced by Russia. Since this is an interesting region, both sides will do their best to strengthen their presence there - one slide from one side can be another defeat. That's why the North-Atlantic media is paying so much attention to the elections. Most likely, both sides cheated, but Yanukovich won and happened to take those "extra advantages" maladroitly. Have you even read what the population from South and East Ukraine say about Yuschenko?
Ukraine's loyal industrial heart
Analysis: Divided Ukraine
Country profile: Ukraine
(I can't be arsed to check outside BBC, it's too late, sorry )

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Last edited by Lira on Dec-07-2004 at 02:46

well, very few politicans today are totally inocent, so i doubt Yuschenko is either.. but fact remains that there was election fraud, and that Yuschenko was leading all the exit polls by far... he was the one who would have won a democratic election, most likely. and he is the one fighting for a free election now, thats why we support him... if it was the opposite way, well, then we would support the other guy... at least i would.

On a none serious note: US has its red and blue states, ukraine has its lilac and orange ones, funny

Heh, I kinda have to agree with Lira here. Yuschenko and his party, although pro-western, can hardly be said to be less corrupt than Yanukovich. His second in command is Yulia Timoschenko, and she's planning to become a prime minister. Since they are planning on transferring the majority of the power from the president to the prime minister, that basically means that she'll be the one in charge of the country. And she has done a lot of shady and probably illegal business in the past that made her become the richest person in Ukraine. So somehow I have a feeling that Yuschenko's party is not that innocent as they're trying to make themselves seem.

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Heh, I kinda have to agree with Lira here. Yuschenko and his party, although pro-western, can hardly be said to be less corrupt than Yanukovich. His second in command is Yulia Timoschenko, and she's planning to become a prime minister. Since they are planning on transferring the majority of the power from the president to the prime minister, that basically means that she'll be the one in charge of the country. And she has done a lot of shady and probably illegal business in the past that made her become the richest person in Ukraine. So somehow I have a feeling that Yuschenko's party is not that innocent as they're trying to make themselves seem.

Hehe, I had completely ignored her existence, thanks for the reminder

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Originally posted by St_Andrew well, very few politicans today are totally inocent, so i doubt Yuschenko is either.. but fact remains that there was election fraud, and that Yuschenko was leading all the exit polls by far... he was the one who would have won a democratic election, most likely. and he is the one fighting for a free election now, thats why we support him... if it was the opposite way, well, then we would support the other guy... at least i would.

hmm... I wouldn't trust exist polls that much. Not only because of their recent history in Ukraine (exit polls have been conducted since 1998), so we cannot compare with previous results to check how reliable they are. In fact, as I recall it, Kerry often was a potential winner in many exit polls as well, and the USA is a country that's had exit polls for a long time (but this is not the case, is it?). In fact, take a look at that first map I posted and this one:



Southern and Western Ukraine seem to be far more populated (with Kiev as an exception, being an island in the middle of nowhere). A 50/50 scenario doesn't sound impossible. (I believe this map is not old, so if anyone could find a map with a proper dating, that would be appreciated ).

If the opposite had happened, well, that would be a completely different scenario, which we don't know about. Maybe Russia wouldn't be able to back Yanukovich up as fiercily, maybe there would be demonstrations anyway (it's 40% of Ukrainians against Yuschenko after all), maybe the Western Media wouldn't want to talk about someone who's against them (so we wouldn't even discuss)... everything would need to be analysed differently.

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Originally posted by dj_bas wow awesome!! that's way bigger than mine

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 His second in command is Yulia Timoschenko, and she's planning to become a prime minister. Since they are planning on transferring the majority of the power from the president to the prime minister, that basically means that she'll be the one in charge of the country. And she has done a lot of shady and probably illegal business in the past that made her become the richest person in Ukraine.

Come on, that's a misinformation. She's far from being the richest person (maybe just a richest lady), and I doubt she'll be a prime minister in the close time.
Everybody here who has some wealth in his pocket had to do "a lot of shady and probably illegal business", just because here was no place for fair business for the last 15 years (or a whole century). Yuschenko is a real chance for a change of this matter.

Lira has a correct point, but it's not applicable to Ukraine. On the top of all, we are not Madagascar, so the people on the streets now are fighting (or rather, standing) for the freedom and not for getting under western influence.
You see all these lilac regions -- any wonder how they got such result? Being pro-russian is just one side of the medal, the other is a complete media blackout for Yuschenko combined with outrageous slander. I'd say that 90% of Yanukovich election campaign was anti-Yuschenko mendacious propaganda (of course on anonymous basis, still the anonymous anti-Yuschenko clips were getting the prime airtime on central TV channels all over the country).
The people of eastern Ukraine were persuaded that Yuschenko is a nazi, who will ban the use of russian language and enslave all people who won't obey etc. I'm speaking seriously. Also anti-american slogans were used heavily, particularly chewing over the fact that Yuschenko's wife was born in US.
Of course a lot of people did not trust this sharp practice, but their votes sunk in the falsification.

People who voted for Yanukovich on the east, were rather voting against Yuschenko. In the other hand, a huge percent of these who voted for Yuschenko also dedicated their votes against Yanukovich, and that's a paradox of Ukrainian 2004 elections.

Kyiv, the capital and the largest city, gave 65% to Yuschenko in the first election round, and up to 80% in the second. The key -- the powers that were pushing Yanukovich were unable to block opposition TV channels and newspapers in the capital city, in addition Kyiv population is the most intelligent and educated on average among the country (so, it's easier to resist a dumb propaganda). Plus, internet access, which is well widespread in the capital -- you can't censor the internet no matter how much power you have, can you?

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Originally posted by Lira Picking sides on the Ukrainian elections if you're not Ukrainian is as pointless as debating whether Bush or Kerry should've won if you're not American. Unless you're thinking about your own situation (i.e. how would my country benefit from the results?), then you shouldn't use the word democracy (or freedom, for that matter), so clearly state your intentions.

Interesting topic about the numb nuts.

Anyway, I find it beneficial to talk/discuss about topics that don't relate to your country. Even if at times, because of one's low quantity of information and sometimes high quantity of misinformation, one comes out as an arrogant fool full of ignorance. You always benefit from debating because at the end of it all you're hopefully learning something new. It doesn't matter if it doesn't pertain to your country.

I agree that it is sometimes risky to pick sides when knowing about only one side, and more when you know so little about that given side. But that's all a part of a learning process. It is normal that some people choose sides. But keep in mind that it is through debating or talking/writing about issues with other people that one learns something new at the end of the day.

And by this debating you gather more information and you will have a more solid base about the side you chose. It doesn't matter if it's Yuschenko or Yanukovich. It doesn't really. It only matters that you know something.

Ugh, I know all of you probably are familiar with what I typed above but I just needed to make a post to make myself feel important and somewhat wise.

I wish a pleasant day/night/evening to all of you.

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