quote:

Originally posted by Cal Aw dude theres lots of evidence, theres even the term "reverse discrimination" in, was it my Human Resourses textbook? hmm not sure. But it refers to how white males feel discriminated against because of this policy. I dont want to go dig up links and info, its late, but just think about all those studies that came out after AAction was put in place. They all go something like this: "after an increase of 50% in the minority complement of the police force, no difference was found in the performance of the police force" But think about how did it get a 50% increase right away? Because all those people were more qualified for the job? Not very likely is it. The more likely answer is that the HR department shafted the truly more capable and qualified applicants in order to get more minorities (to on board with AAction)

I'm not interested in how people "feel". What is to say that one or more of those minorities were not as or more qualified than the most qualified white person, therefore possibly receiving the position without affirmative action? Can a fellow minority who was rejected along with a lot of white people feel relief that one of his minority was hired instead of a white guy? Or would the fellow minority feel just as shafted as the white guy? Are the white people you cite truly more qualified or are they simply agitated that they MIGHT have gotten the job without affirmative action in place, subsequently boosting their evaluation of their own skills in order to provide a reason other than that they're racist to justify their state of being anti-minority? Does your assertion contain too many unprovable and easily biased variables? Where is your evidence that the average performance level on the police force would have INCREASED had there been no affirmative action? I'm interested in the reality of the situation at hand.

So there might have been a substantial increase in minority employment, which doesn't surprise me because the very point of affirmative action is to promote minority. But in the end there's no way you can prove that a white person would have gotten the job instead of the minority had there been no affirmative action in place.

Also we may be commiting the post hoc fallacy with your made up statistics. You should probably look that one up as well. Simply because affirmative action promotes minority and it came before this 50% increase does not mean that the first was the cause of the second. There may be other variables which affected this increase. Unless you can prove that most or all of that 50% were hired through affirmative action.

Hey i'm trying to learn here as much as anyone else. Is there something fundamentally wrong with my logic and reason in this case? Arbiter? Occrider perhaps?

___________________
Robots, machines, mechanical beings
Automatic and synthetic, we have the means
To take control of this planet and the human race
With our electronic rhythms and the Armageddon Bass

Last edited by Radagast on Jan-25-2005 at 07:36

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast That has nothing to do with it. I was just quoting you my man. I was looking for a racial example. Is there a racial example where you believe something is "far from fucking fair".

You are taking that comment out of context because I was referring to minority groups in general, not specifically racial groups.

To be honest I don't have an example of extreme favorable treatment towards a certain ethnic group, at least in my country.

I really feel for people in certain groups because of the social disadvantages they suffer and the difficulties experienced which restrict their ability to reach their dreams.

___________________
"The first stage of the great adventure has concluded happily, and here I am installed in Mexico, although I have no idea about the future" Che Guevara

quote:

Originally posted by SkyHigh Hey!! I have a best friend thats from Kiev and he never told me about the hate.But a little while ago i met some ukranians and they just HATE russians.All my life i never knew about the problem untill now. My parents are ukranian they never tol me anyhting either.

Problem is that Westerners or Zapadyantsi are being bunch of arrogant cocks, since they finally gained independence after being everyone's bitch in a historical sense.

It is like when someone is being bullied all the time and then they finally manage to get power.

Then it gives rise to the nationalist organizations like UNA-UNSO who litter with the useless garbage oftentimes in the form of posters, which contain unoriginal and trite motos like "Ukraine is for Ukrainians" and other bullshit.

Oh and I really hate when I speak to someone in Russian and while they fully understand me, they talk back in Ukrainian. I don't have anything against Ukrainian language, I speak it fluently, but if you see that person speaks to you in a language and you know it, why the fuck would you talk in other language? It is like talking to someone in Spanish, while they reply to you in Portugese.

___________________
Blip, blip, blip...

Last edited by 3xx3r7 on Jan-25-2005 at 06:58

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Aw dude theres lots of evidence, theres even the term "reverse discrimination" in, was it my Human Resourses textbook? hmm not sure. But it refers to how white males feel discriminated against because of this policy. I dont want to go dig up links and info, its late, but just think about all those studies that came out after AAction was put in place. They all go something like this: "after an increase of 50% in the minority complement of the police force, no difference was found in the performance of the police force" But think about how did it get a 50% increase right away? Because all those people were more qualified for the job? Not very likely is it. The more likely answer is that the HR department shafted the truly more capable and qualified applicants in order to get more minorities (to on board with AAction)

There is no doubt that caucasian males are both the most advantaged and the most discriminated group in today's society.

From a social point of view they are the most advantaged because their families tend to be wealthier, they have the most opportunities, their home lives tend to be more productive for completing the schooling and attaining these jobs, and quite simply it is much easier in a 'life' sense to climb the ladder.

From a legal and entitlements analysis this group is by far the most disadvantaged, and if you believe in the concept of 'race' then you will understand they suffer the most racism from legislation and the courts. This group is the most heavily taxed, recieves the lowest form of benefits and Government incentives, and so on.

___________________
"The first stage of the great adventure has concluded happily, and here I am installed in Mexico, although I have no idea about the future" Che Guevara

"Race" does not exist in any objective, physical, verifiable sense. Rather, it can exist only as an idea in our minds - and an idea which can vary greatly from one mind to the next at that.

Because of this any legislation or standards based on the concept of race will always be fundamentally flawed as they are directly tied to a purely subjective borderline-imaginary concept of racial or ethnic identity.

My opinions regarding the legitimacy of law based upon imaginary all-powerful beings are well known, and I see no reason why my opinions regarding laws which depend upon one's acceptance of some sort of imaginary division of the human species into various races should differ.

Without a belief in race, "racism" is gibberish and the notion of policy based on race is nonsensical. From both a practical and philosophical standpoint, I believe that this stance is most desirable.

well, racism i guess especially for blacks in america is i think created by a long time of discrimnation towards their race as a whole. you have to think about it, when they were slaves and such working in ship yards in the early 20th century. again in the 60s, its not like all of these people died, they lived on, to tell their children about their lives and how they were treated by the "white man". i dont really know, but lets just say the black parents told their kids about all that, i dont think it is unreasonable for them to have some sort of hatred towards white. police used to pull people over for DWB (driving while black), and im not kidding around. they would pull them over and search their cars. getting hassled by police just because of your race can build up over time, so is it really any wonder that they call white people racist names? of course you cannot blame the whole white race, but the whole black race was blamed by white people for certain problems in the USA. in the early 20s or 30s when cocaine was still legal, activists who wanted to ban it, blamed the black slaves who caused violence or raped women. im sure there were plenty of white people who caused trouble when cocaine was legal, but they blamed the blacks. they are a race who for quite a long time have lived through inhumane treatment continuously. sure some can use the excuse that they were descriminated against for their misbehaviours and shortcomings, but i think a lot have the right to use that excuse (obviously not for committing crime and such). how it applies to you, switch the two races and see if it makes sense. i in no way justify racism and descrimination towards anyone, nor do i think its right if anyone is called a honky or n-igger, but this is just what i see as an explanation for things.

quote:

Originally posted by Cal Well tell you what, you promise not to fiddle with my personal info anymore and ill take it out.

Huh? What do you mean "fiddle with your personal info"? I can't change/edit it whatsoever...

___________________
Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter "Race" does not exist in any objective, physical, verifiable sense. Rather, it can exist only as an idea in our minds - and an idea which can vary greatly from one mind to the next at that. Because of this any legislation or standards based on the concept of race will always be fundamentally flawed as they are directly tied to a purely subjective borderline-imaginary concept of racial or ethnic identity. My opinions regarding the legitimacy of law based upon imaginary all-powerful beings are well known, and I see no reason why my opinions regarding laws which depend upon one's acceptance of some sort of imaginary division of the human species into various races should differ. Without a belief in race, "racism" is gibberish and the notion of policy based on race is nonsensical. From both a practical and philosophical standpoint, I believe that this stance is most desirable.

I agree with you in a theoretical sense. But I think we do need to recognise the effects of current and previous discrimination. And provide chances for people. Perhaps not by race but by income and area. I think we'd agree that the lowest income bracket in either say the US or UK is disproportionality black. So perhaps by helping that income bracket we could provide race free affirmative action. But still aid those with the least chances.

The problem is that even now employing a minority (religion or race even women) exposes the employer to more risk. If you previously employed a say Muslim who then became a problem (merely not very good at their job perhaps?) and tried sacking them and get pulled up for being "racist" would you employ another? Bear in mind in the first case the manager or whatever wasn't racist, I'll admit they are by not employing another, but there is merely more risk. Like women of child bearing age. At my work a department went from 3 full time people to 1 because 2 were off for having kids (you can imagine how well it ran for the 4-5 months?). It's an additional risk.

So perhaps to counteract these effects of increased risk affirmative action is required?

___________________
If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

If you are trying to figure out about the black white thing read

The Content of our Character by Shelby Steele. I read it 3 weeks ago and it blew my mind. 120 pages and brilliant. a concise summation of racial resentment in America. Deeply honest, a fair and balanced look. I took a 4 month 4 hour a day class on this and if we had just read the book maybe a bunch of kids in class would have been able to say what they were thinking instead of crying.

Anyone interested in this should read it. It no shit takes ONE day to read and extremely well written.

and personally most Americans are becoming culturalists more than racist. The anti racial pride movement has made us focus on other aspects of life.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax The anti racial pride movement has made us focus on other aspects of life.

Thats whats happening in Scotland......


....."We aren't rasist scum like thouse f*cnking English!"

isn't irony a beautiful thing

Seriously people say that shit. They are half kidding really (anti-english sentiment I mean) but it's progress I supose and it works.

___________________
If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

its made for a dangerous thing really. Before it could be chalked to ignorance. "I hate blacks" why "cuz theyre black" made it seem stupid. Now people are just having that racist feeling and then going out and getting information on it. Instead of solving the problem they are curing the symptoms. Dont say ******! Why? its racist. Why not delve into why they dont like them and try to fix THAT.

If you make people shut up about it it becomes bitterness. So youll eventually have a very well read, intelligent racist who spreads insidious propaganda like "The problem in America is that we have too many opportunities too many hand outs. It gives people a sense of entitlement, a sense of 'I deserve this' its bullshit and the people doing it are just as weak as the system they live in"

I didnt mention race once in that statement. Guess who its aimed at though.

So, like I said, i find it to be bad progress

quote:

Originally posted by Radagast The fact that affirmative action is in place does not validate any belief that this is shafting the majority. There is no evidence that affirmative action displaces white people in favor of minorities. In any case of affirmative action when used to hire people for work or accept people for schools, a minority might have acquired said position even without affirmative action in place. They cite no evidence.

http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/

Although the Supreme Court ruled in favor of U-M admission procedures, the University did admit that affirmitive action is being used to 'create a diverse student body.' One could logically infer that, in this case, more qualified majority candidates are being denied admissions.