Thanks. I saw that you guys mentioned another thread, but I did not know which you were referring to, as I rarely venture out of this forum. Thanks for posting the link, I'll have to check it out and see if I have anything to add to my previous comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Once she had graduated or completely stopped associating with you, wouldn't she stop being a threat? Besides, she just walked away, it's not like she had ratted you or anything. She was not a traitor - she was a "coward", if you will and such "cowardness" wouldn't be a threat because if she would most likely be enough of a "coward" not to do anything against you... not to mention that, as far as you've told us, the reason why she did so remains unknown. Wasn't damaging her relationship and her school life a bit bang out of order? Couldn't it be related to the fact she had slept with you in spite of being commited, which may trigger a harsher behaviour? Understanding you is something that's taught me a lot but this time, I'm quite puzzled.

I was definitely angry, that's one thing for sure. It wasn't the sex - which I viewed and still view as largely meaningless - but the friendship. I don't keep a lot of friends and the people I choose are people I think very highly of - and therefore have high expectations of as well. I was disappointed, frustrated, and angry: not only at her, but also at myself for apparently misjudging her.

But that was merely incidental - it wasn't the reason for the severity of my actions. It was for the sake of personal honesty - and to maintain my credibility. I had made it clear to everyone I was working with that this type of betrayal/cowardice/whatever-you-want-to-call-it would not be acceptable, and that moreover, anyone found to have betrayed us would face the most serious consequences that we could muster without putting ourselves at too much legal risk. Nobody was allowed in without knowing what was expected of them and what consequences they could expect to face if that expectation wasn't met. If they weren't prepared to deal with that kind of commitment, they had plenty of opportunities to turn it down.

Now if I went to all that length to make sure everyone understood the degree of loyalty and discipline expected of members, and then when a member blatantly violated their commitment and I did nothing about it, what would it say about me? That I was lying, inconsistent, untrustworthy - someone who doesn't back up words with actions. But that's not the kind of person I am - and if I am to expect the trust, discipline, and loyalty from the other people I associate with, I can't have them thinking that's the kind of person I am either. Any organization no matter how big or small which doesn't enforce its rules is a joke and can't expect to accomplish anything or maintain any semblance of discipline. It wasn't her "the person" that posed a continuous threat: it was "her" the idea - the idea that a person could spit in my face and I'd just turn the other cheek. That was the true threat, the threat which could only be erased by fulfilling the promise I made the day she joined, the promise that disloyalty would be met with the stiffest penalties available.

As a leader, and as a man of my word, I had little choice.

OK. Interesting. I guess I would say a couple of things now in response to what Arbiter posted the the "worst thing you've ever done" thread, now that I've said that I agree with his defense of individualism in this thread. I tried to restrict my comments to issues relevant in this thread, and I stick by what I said in regards to the topic of this thread.

In response to the skeleton in Arbiter's closet...well, it was posted in the "what's the worst thing you've ever done" thread, so that should tell you something. He recognizes it as the worst thing he's ever done, directly or indirectly, so it's no surprise that it would make you squirm. Don't confuse a flaw in his character with a flaw in his philosophy about individualism. Nobody is perfect. If he loses of couple of respect points in your book because he let you in on a dark secret, then so be it.

But yea, I think he was a little "gung-ho" on the whole academic infiltration thing. Failure is not an option with this one.

Last edited by Shakka on Apr-10-2005 at 04:29

quote:

Originally posted by zig Aw yes...you provide justification for your actions and reasoning to go with it,as to why you must at all costs it seems,protect your honour and integrity and deal with any threats to yourself with extreme malice and you care little for the fact that the individual concerned may have committed suicide later in her life....and you obviously know how this sounds to other people...it sounds cold and calculated....and then you go on about other individuals being boring and predictable with a mental weakness...because they put open to question your reasoning...and of course you have contempt for them also...perfectly rational of course....except for one thing....it exposes you probably more than you would like to people who read these forums...and these same people will form ophinions about you...some of which you obviously cant handle...as for my ophinion of you...cold calculating c**t probably comes quickest to mind....but no doubt i am probably weak also in your ophinion............

Trust me, I can handle just about any opinion that anybody on this forum could muster. The only thing I ask is that you back it up. If you don't I'm going to call you on it: it's simple as that.

I'll never call somebody an idiot or an asshole for having an opinion, but if you're going to spout off about how crappy a person somebody is you should back your opinions up with a well-thought-out rationale.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you've just skimmed over this conversation and don't really have a sound understanding of what's going on. Now I'm going to suggest that before you post on this topic again, you acquire such an understanding and put some coherent thoughts together next time, preferably in a more readable paragraph format. I'd be more than happy to address any legitimate comments, concerns, or questions you have. But if you're just going to spout off a bunch of personal insults without backing your position up I'm going to call you on it just like your good buddy Dervish here.

his views and philosophy are still no justification for the severity of his actions taken against this girl

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Arbiter, you're a pretty typical male in the sense that your attitude and views are highly influenced by the whole i'm-completely-independend-don't-need-anyone macho bullshit. And as a reslut, you're cruel, insecure and afraid of truly caring about anyone else. You really need to grow out of it unless you want to be a bitter old lonely man.

The fact that you think you know so much about me from a handful of posts on an internet message board speaks volumes about your credibility. The reality is that you only know one thing about me: if I'm put in the position where I feel threatened and betrayed by someone, I don't hold back. As much as I wish I would never have to be in that position, that's something I'm not ashamed of.

If you gave that description of me to any of my friends or family they would tell you that you're full of shit, because you are.

When I met my last girlfriend, Liza, she was working as a waitress in downtown DC and living in a one bedroom apartment with three roommates because that was all she could afford. She had dropped out of school because her parents cut off her money when they disowned her after finding out she had sex out of wedlock and she couldn't get a loan. Three months before we even started going out, I had her not only back in school but enrolled in a pre-med program - all at my own expense and without ever intending to ask for any repayment. She was two semesters ahead of her courses as a result of my tutoring and her own brilliant mind and she got straight A's in her first semester. I got her a good job through my personal contacts teaching old people how to use computers so she could pay for her own expenses, and when she got sick with mono and couldn't go to class I caught a train up to see her and back every single day to comfort her and make sure she didn't fall behind in her classes even though I was also sick myself for a month.

When my close friend John's father died during exam week, I was the one who stayed up with him for 54 hours straight, making sure he got through it in one piece and without flunking out of school. I even missed an exam to do it, and was lucky my professor allowed me to take it a day late when I explained the situation. But if he hadn't, I would still have no regrets.

When my grandfather had lung cancer and my grandmother needed help to take care of him, I rode 5-6 hours there and 5-6 hours back from Buffalo, NY to Bay City, MI seven days a week while going to attending school fairly regularly to offer my emotional support and help my grandmother make his last days as comfortable as humanly possible.

Every single person who I call my friend I would give my life for without a moment's hesitation. I doubt you could say the same. So yeah, if someone poses a threat to me, or stabs my friends in the back, you better believe I'm going to go at them 100%.

That's the honorable way of life in my opinion: nothing but the best for my friends, nothing but the worst for my enemies. If that doesn't always comply with people's simplistic one-dimensional conceptions of right and wrong so be it. That's what I stand for and I'll stick by it to the very end. What about you?

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The fact that you think you know so much about me from a handful of posts on an internet message board speaks volumes about your credibility.

Ok, I could say the same thing to you based on that last statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter If that doesn't always comply with people's simplistic one-dimensional conceptions of right and wrong so be it.

Anyways, that's besides the point. After reading your last response, I must say I have a certain amount of respect for you partly becuase of unselfishly helping someone else out, partly because you seem to be loyal to your friends etc. and patly becuae you seem to be someone who tries to live by and stick to his values and beliefs.

I must also admit I don't really know much about the situation with your ex other than what little I read of some of your post and other people's response to them. It's understandable why you would be pissed but I still think your reaction was too harsh to be justified.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter But that was merely incidental - it wasn't the reason for the severity of my actions. It was for the sake of personal honesty - and to maintain my credibility. I had made it clear to everyone I was working with that this type of betrayal/cowardice/whatever-you-want-to-call-it would not be acceptable, and that moreover, anyone found to have betrayed us would face the most serious consequences that we could muster without putting ourselves at too much legal risk. Nobody was allowed in without knowing what was expected of them and what consequences they could expect to face if that expectation wasn't met. If they weren't prepared to deal with that kind of commitment, they had plenty of opportunities to turn it down. Now if I went to all that length to make sure everyone understood the degree of loyalty and discipline expected of members, and then when a member blatantly violated their commitment and I did nothing about it, what would it say about me? That I was lying, inconsistent, untrustworthy - someone who doesn't back up words with actions. But that's not the kind of person I am - and if I am to expect the trust, discipline, and loyalty from the other people I associate with, I can't have them thinking that's the kind of person I am either. Any organization no matter how big or small which doesn't enforce its rules is a joke and can't expect to accomplish anything or maintain any semblance of discipline. It wasn't her "the person" that posed a continuous threat: it was "her" the idea - the idea that a person could spit in my face and I'd just turn the other cheek. That was the true threat, the threat which could only be erased by fulfilling the promise I made the day she joined, the promise that disloyalty would be met with the stiffest penalties available. As a leader, and as a man of my word, I had little choice.

Well, I (think I) do understand your attitude now.

However, I wonder whether this behaviour doesn't bring you much problems. By keeping your word ruthlessly, it's only natural that others will feel threatened/freightened. In a moment of despair, in spite of how trustful you are to friends, any of your "friends/allies" could do something to you fearing your reaction and, not only you could have problems for being one step behind or because you could be outnumbered. I mean, wasn't the discipline too harsh for a students' jury? Maybe you're expecting from others what you'd expect yourself to do. Unfortunately, we can't behave that way (otherwise I wouldn't be here awake because of the stupidity of a teacher of mine, for example).

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quote:

Originally posted by Lira Well, I (think I) do understand your attitude now. However, I wonder whether this behaviour doesn't bring you much problems. By keeping your word ruthlessly, it's only natural that others will feel threatened/freightened. In a moment of despair, in spite of how trustful you are to friends, any of your "friends/allies" could do something to you fearing your reaction and, not only you could have problems for being one step behind or because you could be outnumbered. I mean, wasn't the discipline too harsh for a students' jury? Maybe you're expecting from others what you'd expect yourself to do. Unfortunately, we can't behave that way (otherwise I wouldn't be here awake because of the stupidity of a teacher of mine, for example).

I can't say that I've really had any problems like that. For the most part, my friends realize that it's pretty easy not to put me in that position. I don't ask for a whole lot: and if I ask for something significant, it's optional. The problem arises when people choose to make a commitment and then want to back out of that. I do have a problem with that, but if they have a good reason I'd be more than happy to work with them to try to find some sort of satisfactory resolution to the situation. When someone won't even talk to you, that can't be done however. I really have no idea what was going through her head but my other friends seem to see that it's not that hard to avoid a conflict like that if they just act like reasonable people and accordingly don't feel particularly threatened.

As for whether or not the punishment was too harsh, that's something I personally choose not to really judge one way or the other. But one thing you have to understand is, that with things like that you never know how harsh they're going to end up being. I mean when I altered her registration, I didn't know how incompetent the school registration department would be in repairing the error. I had originally expected it to cause her a lot of stress and maybe make her miss a few classes, but eventually be resolved.

With regards to her fiance, you never know how something like that is going to work out anyway. I mean I didn't think the guy was particularly good for her in the first place, but that was just my opinion. An end to that relationship was obviously painful to her but it was also an opportunity to possibly find another relationship that might be even better. How harsh a discipline it really ends up being is subject to how she decides to react to the situation, as well as chance. It wasn't something I had complete control over - I wasn't sure I'd even be able to cause a permanent and complete breakup rather than just a lot of fights as they'd broken up and gotten back together about five million times before that.

So at the time the "punishments" didn't seem like they'd be as bad as maybe they ended up being. But whether or not that makes them excessive? I don't know, it's really just an opinion and I don't have much of an opinion on the matter.

I see.

Although I would've behaved in a different way (which is only natural since we're different individuals), I've got nothing to say other than mere opinions. Therefore, I'd better get some sleep, as I should've gone to bed a few hours ago... oops

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Out of curiosity Arbiter, and correct me if I'm wrong, but have you been influenced by Stirner, Nietzsche and Sartre's philosophies? I can't help but notice patterns in your behaviour molded along the lines of philosophies of egoism, individualism and existentialism as promulgated by the aformentioned figures. Not that I'm making a judgement either way as to the validity or worthiness of these philosophies. I'm simply intrigued as to where your philosophical influences stem from, seeing as you remind me very much of a good friend of mine.

On another note, although I understand why the dichotomous myth of reason versus emotions continues to linger in popular culture, I can't understand why no one in this thread has not bothered to debunk it...unless of course, everyone here adheres to the myth. Kant is the philosopher best known for emphasizing an opposition between reason and emotions, trumpeting of course the virtues of the former over the latter. Without delving into the details of Kant's moral philosophy (although we could if anyone here is interested), suffice it to say that modern neuroscience and neurophilosophy guided by Hume's thinking on this matter has shown that not only is this dichotomy simplistic, it's also dead wrong, in the objective sense. Hume asserted: "Reason alone can never be a motive to any action of the will; and secondly, it can never oppose passion in the direction of the will [...] Tis from the prospect of pain or pleasure that the aversion or propensity arises towards any object: And these emotions extend themselves to the causes and effects of that object, as they ar pointed out to us by reason and experience" (A treatise of Human Nature, 1739, 413-414).

Hume aside, all current work in neurobiology with regards to decision making clearly points to a different picture than the one conventionally painted by pop-culture -- a one-dimensional struggle between reason and emotion. All directions point to a rather complex interplay between this cognitive-emotive consortium versus that cognitive-emotive consortium. Emotion is key in decision making, any way you slice it. Empirical evidence abunds to support this claim, and I invite anyone doubting this to research the massive amount of work that has been done by neurobiologist pioneers in this field such as the Damasios, who dramatically illustrated that point with their remarkable patient E.V.R. Click here for an interesting read. Personally, I strongly recommend anyone interested in this to pick up Patricia Churchland's "Brainwise", and check out the section on Free Will (pages 201-237). She's an absolutely brilliant philosopher of mind who "does philosophy the right way" to quote Quine, because she bases all her theories on hard empirical science, rather than dubious a priori armchair metaphysics like most of the pontiffs in this field.