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| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Ok, I'll use your new examples then.
(thanks for doing my research for me by the way)
From:
"In the Kentucky case, two county executives separately posted copies of the King James version of the Ten Commandments on the walls of their courthouses.
They were displayed among 11 frames of privately donated historical documents and symbols that helped form the basis of American law and government, including the Declaration of Independence. All but the Ten Commandments were secular in nature.
The American Civil Liberties Union objected and won at the federal appeals level. The counties then asked the Supreme Court to intervene.
In Texas, Thomas Van Orden, a self-described "religious pluralist," filed suit against the placement, with private funds, of a 6-foot-tall monument on the grounds of Austin's Capitol Building in 1961. It bears the words "Ten Commandments," a star of David, a symbol representing Christ and the words "I am the Lord thy God."
Van Orden says that, in allowing the monument, Texas crossed the line separating church and state by promoting "personal religious beliefs."
Can I get an irrational hell yea up in here!!?? |
And yet it lies sitting on the SC in waiting for a decision. You a bettin' man? I still contend this sucker's gonna get passed, probably 6-5, but it'll pass.
Not that I don't have a certain amount of faith in our SC - they've been a welcome surprise on a number of issues over the past coupla years (the Texas anti-sodomy case, for ex . But I'm still bettin' this will go through.
| quote: | | You realize he is infringing on one set of civil liberties for another. |
No, I don't, and here's why -
Conflicts between jobs and ethics occur all the time. A librarian at a Christian college, for example, who happens to be a devout nun should still have a neutral obligation to help a student find research proving the nonexistence of Jesus. A gas station clerk who abhores smoking and has seen both his parents pass away as a consequence of lung cancer still has an neutral obligation to sell cigarrettes to a customer. A store clerk who cannot stand the sight of dirty mags still has a neutral obligation to sell them to a customer if they ask for them. A physician has a neutral obligation to treat EVERYONE who needs treated, whether they are black, white, homosexual, female, male, etc. IOW, they have obligations inherent with their job, and they accept those obligations in full once they accept that job. If they choose not to fulfill those obligations, then they should NOT have chosen that given line of employment.
Furthermore, pharmacists are licensed BY THE STATE to sell LEGALLY prescribed drugs. If they choose not to do so based on some twisted moral agenda, then they have not fulfilled the terms of their state license and should therefore have it taken away. Christ, what’s the fucking purpose of being a pharmacist if you get to pick and choose what drugs a prescriber can take? That’s up to the fucking doctors in the first place, NOT the pharmacist.
Additionally, there are other reasons why women take oral contraceptives aside of birth control purposes – acne, hormone imbalances, extreme menstrual cramping are a few that immediately come to mind. For a pharmacist to completely disregard these other purposes, or what’s worse – personally judge a prescriber unworthy of needing such medicine for these purposes is reprehensible.
What’s more, in regards to the morning-after pill, there is a 72 hr. window in which that pill must be taken in order to avoid pregnancy. Some of these pharmacists are not only refusing to give the prescription to women, but are withholding the prescription altogether so that they NEVER receive it, as well as attempt to access another pharmacist with it. If you are referring to civil liberties being infringed, you are seemingly forgetting that Roe v. Wade IS the law of the land, and that women do, in fact, have a right to such a prescription, as well as a right to choose (whether or not I actually agree with it). The pharmacist is, in essence, taking this right away from the woman, which is not only unethical but quite unlawful as well.
I do realize that they are private entities, and by logic of free enterprise should have a right to sell what they want to. However, they ARE a public service, and ARE granted a state license to do business. What’s more, there is a major difference between selling a product and controlling access to it. Pharmacists do not just sell a product, they control access to it, and must therefore legally and ethically have a neutral obligation for someone to obtain such a product.
And on a Christian perspective, I think their actions are so unbelievably anti-Christian to begin with. No where have I seen in the Bible that such a given behavior is okay to be forced upon others. These fundie fucks just don’t seem to understand this in any manner. If they have a “moral” conflict with what they are doing, then they should simply step away from their jobs, period. They also tie themselves up in a bit of a moral quagmire – by not giving birth control or morning after pills, they enhance the risk of future unwanted pregnancies AND future abortions. The former is a bit funny considering how little we as a society, including the fundies, have done to help adopted and fostered programs, as well as help these teenage mothers and their children get through poverty. The latter is even worse – since abortions are legal, they only increase those numbers that they ardently fight against. But hey, since it’s no longer their problem and have successfully passed the problem onto someone else, they can pat themselves on the back and wipe their hands clean, right?
I really never thought I’d see the day where such a situation like this would occur – that the slippery slope of preventing conception would come down to refusing birth control. The drug store is not a fucking place of worship, last time I checked.
| quote: | | Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro-abortion, err choice, but your taking the right from a pharamsict to discriminate. |
They never had that right to begin with - that's the problem here.
| quote: | Maybe we should just get rid of the pharamsict completely and just put in a machine that accepts perscriptions like vouchers?
Anyway that OT... |
Honestly, I fail to see the harm in that at all. Perhaps it puts a bit too much on the backs of doctors, but this machine you describe is exactly the role of a pharmacist to the customer. Oh sure, they have other roles to be certain, but in terms of dealing with the customer, this is exactly their purpose, period. They are NOT my fucking psychologist, NOT my fucking mother/father, and certainly NOT my fucking preacher. They don’t like such a role, they can kindly find another line of work.
| quote: | | All I am saying is that, if you'd just shut up they wouldn't be so invegorated. All I'm saying is that if the liberals would just shut up (because its pretty much going their way) I don't think the conservatives would be so fundie paristan as they are. |
You honestly believe the fundies are the way they are because of LIBERALS? Oh Christ, where to begin with that one. Well I’ll tell you what, I’ll keep this short and give a counterexample. Fox. On the one side you see a channel that pretty much gets the public off on tits, ass, and shock – exactly the recipe that inflames fundies. What’s worse, it’s not even a fucking cable channel. Then turn over to Fox News and what do you see? A so-called “moral” compass for conservatives and their associated fundie crew.
The problem isn’t liberals – the problem is their own fucking irrationality. They have a problem with evolution? Well perhaps they should learn a bit more about biology and how science is conducted first, as well as learn to keep their faith wholly separate from science in the fucking first place.
They have a problem with safe sex programs? Well then they need to understand why their abstinence-only programs are such incredible failures, and why their president continues to fund them, which is actually bringing MORE unprotected sex and therefore MORE STDs onto our kids as well as unwanted teenage pregnancies.
They have a problem with an atheist wanting to take “under God” out of the Pledge? Well they should know a bit more about our own fucking history and realize it was only inserted in 1954 as a means to fight “godless” communism. And since godless communism is no longer a threat, and since about 10% of our country is now atheist or agnostic, and since there are, in fact, other religions that are in this country that believe in multiple deities, it’s only logical and ethical that it now be taken out.
They have a problem with homosexuals wanting to demonstrate their love and devotion as well as be acknowledged exactly the same way that heterosexuals do and want the exact same benefits that heterosexuals have that are granted by our government? They should fucking learn to understand and accept people that are slightly different than they in the first place, rather than proselytize and attempt to inflict their own narrow version of “morality” on everyone else. They should understand that homosexuals are who they are and do not CHOOSE to be that way, and that they are an embedded part of our society. What’s more, they are also an embedded part of religious institutions and churches now too, and rightfully so. Not everyone interprets the Bible the same way, and for them to claim their way is the ONLY way of interpreting 1Timothy and 1Corinthians is nothing short of pure arrogance and ignorance.
To me society is slowly but surely waking up to the fundie irrationality, and slowly but surely calling them on their bullshit. If that’s a problem for the fundies, so be it – if they can’t smell their own bullshit then that’s their problem. Everyone else can, and it’s not merely the “liberals” who have noses.
| quote: | | True, another part of the beauty of the constitution is the spirit it was written in. I don't think we are honoring that spirit as much anymore. It is more of a memory then the heartbeat of America by every passing day... |
What is this old forgotten "spirit" you speak of? To me I think we're very much in the spirit that it was written.
| quote: | You just can't help yourself! You have a problem a real, real problem!  |
I know. Old habits die hard.
___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
Last edited by MisterOpus1 on Apr-12-2005 at 16:14
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