Look at it this way.

I'm tired of people saying that religion is bad when it isn't. You can read the bible and be mother theresa or read it and become that rich king who wanted land and used the bible as an excuse to get it or an extremest who bombs abortion clinics. And I'm tired of people trying to convert me into their religion by going to my house and bothering me. Are all people in religion like this? no.

This happens to everyone. One time or another, we all wonder what this world is about. We choose what we believe in, no need to shove your religion down our throats.

And people should have ACCEPTANCE, for other people's beliefs. No one should force their beliefs and tell them what's wrong or right even though the evidence is there, theist to athiest.

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quote:

Originally posted by Orbax ...

yeah definitely. You're the type of religious person i have the utmost respect for. Its cool cause you're not quick to judge anything, let alone books by their covers. You can just chill and have a good time but still hold on to the values that you've instilled in yourself on how you want to live your life.

I still hold some of the values that I got from growing up in a religious family. I was brought up catholic, which many people say is the reason im not longer religious, hehe.. and i went to a catholic school from kindergarten through 8th grade. I look back, and I hated the way they would try to force beliefs and morals down my throat. Thats probably why I am the way I am. I dont want to have to believe what everyone else does. I want to belief that which works best for me. Thats also why I'm not an athiest. Im agnostic because, I'm the person that relies on proof for things, and since you cant prove that there ISNT a God, I refuse to be athiest. It just seems like too many religions are so set in their ways and if you think about it, organized religion has been a burden on society for millenia.

From back in the day of Jesus, to when settlers escaped Europe to come here and worship how they wanted, even to Hitler slaying millions because they didnt believe the way he did.

Then of course there is an upside to religion in being that it gives people something to hold on to. If having the faith that there is a wonderful God and a perfect place waiting for you when you die makes you live a happier, fuller life while you're here, more power to you.

Orbax.. you are the definition of what i feel, religious people should be. Go out and preach your ways!

quote:

Originally posted by newtotrance Scientology was developed by man and not from God.

lol, god was also invented by man!

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I myself am catholic.
however i find religion a very interesting topic to talk about as many as you can near a coffee table. Everyone's views are different based on what happened, whats happening and the things to come.
personally, i am very interested in Scientology. I don't take science as much offense to personal religious virtures as many other hardcore catholics.
I've read details about The DaVinci Code and while it may offend the chuch, i take it as another interpretation of the bible, something no would ASBOLUTELY must follow, but something that should be taken into proper consideratoin

quote:

Originally posted by Xenocreator_PG_ lol, god was also invented by man!

ouch man.. harsh. i believe the same thing, but still.. ouch

In my opinion, this is true though. We, as humans, being intelligent enough to be aware of our own existance, and lack thereof, how else do we explain why we're here. We're intelligent enough to have spiritual beliefs as well, although even chimps and gorillas have shown "spiritual" behavior in the past. Whether religion and "God" were thought up or created through visions, I don't know and I doubt we ever will. Religion had to start somewhere, and we know damn well it was there long before Jesus was around. People didnt just magically become intelligent enough to realize their existance when he showed up.

blah im so confused.. I should be cleaning. No more religious mumbo jumbo from me for awhile

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley So basically you tried to befriend some people who were scientologists and the only excuse they could think of for getting rid of you was tell you they weren't allowed to talk to non-scientologists?! Take a hint woman!

It depends on the level that they take their religion seriously. I still talk to all the people that I know that are Scientologists because they don't follow that rule. I was just giving the reasons as to why for example Tom Cruise doesn't have any close friends that aren't Scientologists.

And as far as I know Michael19, they don't ask for any "donations" or any money. No one I know has ever had to give any sort of money to the religion (unlike Christianity or Catholicism for example).

___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire

arrrr where'd newtotrance go? its better when there are people arguing
however, i'd rather have a happy middle
k so i usually don't just flat out criticize people online, or real life either, but seriously newtotrance, the way you talk is exactly what makes me hate most organized religion, mainly worship-based religions.

i personally am agnostic/atheist, i could go either way. however, when i'm talking to someone, especially someone with radically different beliefs than me (in this case, newtotrance would be a great example), i would choose words carefully, because rememner, we're talking about BELIEFS. you state everything so as to suggest that you are right, and everything you say is 100% correct, and most of all, undebatable.

now i firmly believe that using a religion as a tool to inspire hope and to teach good values can be a great thing. however, i also believe that the way many religions, especially christianity in almost all its forms, are centered around worship of a single figure, whether that be jesus or God or whoever, is not a good thing. See i believe this with all my heart, and its gonna be damned near impossible to change my mind, but i realize that other people would disagree as much vigor as i would have defending my beliefs.

and again i hate to stereotype, but in my experience, hardcore christians such as yourself have very narrow minds. care to specify which religion you were referring to when you talked of burning incense and sacrificing animals? hinduism is actually incredibly tolerant of other beliefs and values, unlike how you're acting.
so if you really understand religion, care to tell me the differences between buddhism and hinduism? or are they just the same to you?

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http://www.youtube.com/mezzir

At this point in my life I'm not into religion. I was actually just having this conversation the other day with some of my friends and I've finally figured out what I think. I believe in extremes and contradictions. At its core everything is either black or white, dead or alive, on or off, one or zero, good or bad. But your wondering well what about fuzzy logic eh? I say that (if you haven't geussed it) everything inbetween is a mixture of the two extremes. Just like there can be black and white, with enough black and white you get grey. With enough 1's and 0's there comes the number 7 or 2 or 865. With enough good and enough bad there becomes neutrality (like sweden). So in the end because of the convenient construction of numbers, everything eventually comes down to chance and probability and everyone is insanely highly improbable but yet the most infinitely probable event because low and behold we all still exist. Here's where contradictions comes in. Everything matters and yet doesn't matter at the same time. In less cryptic terms everything one does has some effect on the universe, but yet the universe is so big and well... cosmic, not only are the effects not felt directly, but they may not even be felt at all, so you matter but at the same time you don't. The two contradictions present a marriage of extremes.

As for God, he is a product of chance. Just as god could be some giant guy floating up in the clouds saying "hey lil humans do this!" we could all be fallen dieties as scientology suggests. Who knows?

quote:

Originally posted by newtotrance Came from the apes eh? Well, congradulations on evolving from an animal with less intelligence than humans. You need a cookie. Seriously tho, that is the evolutionary theory. No, they have not been saying this to me since I was a kid. I have not seen him. However, where did the apes come from? Some atomic gas from outer space. It says in Genesis 1, that God created the earth and humans. There is no way that humans could evolve from apes.

This is likely your worst argument. I respect alot of what you have to say but you're referncing spiritual scripture to try to argue a scientific theory. These scriptures are not proof in themselves, they are only another theory of existence. You cannot say one theory is not right because your theory says otherwise and expect people to respect your argument.

quote:

Originally posted by mezzir arrrr where'd newtotrance go? its better when there are people arguing however, i'd rather have a happy middle k so i usually don't just flat out criticize people online, or real life either, but seriously newtotrance, the way you talk is exactly what makes me hate most organized religion, mainly worship-based religions. i personally am agnostic/atheist, i could go either way. however, when i'm talking to someone, especially someone with radically different beliefs than me (in this case, newtotrance would be a great example), i would choose words carefully, because rememner, we're talking about BELIEFS. you state everything so as to suggest that you are right, and everything you say is 100% correct, and most of all, undebatable. now i firmly believe that using a religion as a tool to inspire hope and to teach good values can be a great thing. however, i also believe that the way many religions, especially christianity in almost all its forms, are centered around worship of a single figure, whether that be jesus or God or whoever, is not a good thing. See i believe this with all my heart, and its gonna be damned near impossible to change my mind, but i realize that other people would disagree as much vigor as i would have defending my beliefs. and again i hate to stereotype, but in my experience, hardcore christians such as yourself have very narrow minds. care to specify which religion you were referring to when you talked of burning incense and sacrificing animals? hinduism is actually incredibly tolerant of other beliefs and values, unlike how you're acting. so if you really understand religion, care to tell me the differences between buddhism and hinduism? or are they just the same to you?

plus fucking one

quote:

Originally posted by NomadaNare At this point in my life I'm not into religion. I was actually just having this conversation the other day with some of my friends and I've finally figured out what I think. I believe in extremes and contradictions. At its core everything is either black or white, dead or alive, on or off, one or zero, good or bad. But your wondering well what about fuzzy logic eh? I say that (if you haven't geussed it) everything inbetween is a mixture of the two extremes. Just like there can be black and white, with enough black and white you get grey. With enough 1's and 0's there comes the number 7 or 2 or 865. With enough good and enough bad there becomes neutrality (like sweden). So in the end because of the convenient construction of numbers, everything eventually comes down to chance and probability and everyone is insanely highly improbable but yet the most infinitely probable event because low and behold we all still exist. Here's where contradictions comes in. Everything matters and yet doesn't matter at the same time. In less cryptic terms everything one does has some effect on the universe, but yet the universe is so big and well... cosmic, not only are the effects not felt directly, but they may not even be felt at all, so you matter but at the same time you don't. The two contradictions present a marriage of extremes. As for God, he is a product of chance. Just as god could be some giant guy floating up in the clouds saying "hey lil humans do this!" we could all be fallen dieties as scientology suggests. Who knows?

so you believe the theory that everything is based on chance and centered around two extremes, each of which deal with that specific issue but are on completely different ends of a "moral spectrum" or "physical spectrum" or so forth?


well as far as a "supreme being" or "beings", how do you favor, because although you seem to have all that figured out, you still havent stated your personal feelings on, let say, the Christian viewpoint or the Athiests viewpoint?

quote:

Originally posted by tribu This is likely your worst argument. I respect alot of what you have to say but you're referncing spiritual scripture to try to argue a scientific theory. These scriptures are not proof in themselves, they are only another theory of existence. You cannot say one theory is not right because your theory says otherwise and expect people to respect your argument.

exactly.. prime example of what mezzir and I were getting at.. Its great that you (newtotrance) have this belief and you're happy with it, but its tough to debate something without an open mind. Now i cant disprove the existance of God so i couldnt possibly stomp my foot down and say he /she/ie isnt there. See.. thats called "open-minded."

Thats why i can listen to your arguement, agree or disagree, and then give you my input. In your case, there will never be an agreement because anything I put forth will contradict in everyway what you have to say, while I can fully see where you're coming from and understand how or why you feel the way you do.

thats what you have to be able to do to provide a powerful and whole-hearted debate