quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Also, the threat to Israel is extremely different to the threat to America. The threat to Israel is huge, yet can you say the same threat applies to America? No, certainly not. Just cos the threats happen to come from Muslims does not mean the threat is "common" I am unaware of any al-Qaida involvement in any attack in Israel proper, in fact, the Palestinian groups have continously rejected attempts by al-Qaida to influence the groups. On the same point, America face no threat from Hizballah or the Palestinian groups

I wouldn't say "extremly different threat", but "slightly different threat". Also Al-Q has aided the Palestinians and Hezbullah on numerous occasions.

Israel however likes to keep quiet on operations that it was successful in preventing unlike stupider British and USA governments which like to march around and parade on every small little intelligence triumph they seem to have...

Instead you only hear about Israeli failures

quote:

The UK (and Spain and Italy and Denmark etc) share a "common" threat with America, yet the alliance between those countries and America is nothing like the alliance between America and Israel

How so?

I think it is very similar to the alliance between those countries. The USA trains, equips, and fights with all those allies and has good economic terms.

The only different I see is A) Israel is the only USA allie at constant war and B) compared the above mentioned states the USA and Israel share a free-trade pact. (So it would be more similar to the USA alliances with Singapore, Austrilia, and UK)

___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus I wouldn't say "extremly different threat", but "slightly different threat". Also Al-Q has aided the Palestinians and Hezbullah on numerous occasions.

Do you have any links as I am not aware of any?

quote:

How so? I think it is very similar to the alliance between those countries. The USA trains, equips, and fights with all those allies and has good economic terms.

Yes well you would thini its a similar alliance wouldn't you?!

I don't think the US particularly needs to train any of those countries (including Israel) if anything I would have thought it more likely to be the other way round (esp re UK and Israel) Training excersises maybe, but thats not training. Also it does not "arm" those countries it sells weapons to them which is completely different. And ont "fights with" Completely true, for everyone but Israel! Or is that the other way round? Maybe America's Middle Eastern adventures are for Israel's benefits? After all, Saddam was no threat to the West. There is no way he was gonna sell weapons to a group whose primary aim was the overthrow of Middle Eastern governments, so where would those WMDs be targeted at? Hmmmm....

So, to put it another way - does Israel fight for America like the UK or Denmark or France fight for America? No

quote:

The only different I see is A) Israel is the only USA allie at constant war and B) compared the above mentioned states the USA and Israel share a free-trade pact. (So it would be more similar to the USA alliances with Singapore, Austrilia, and UK)

Israel is "technically" at war with Syria. If you're talking about being at war with terrorists, then so were the UK, but did America send us billions in aid? Did they fuck! They sent money to the fucking terrorists!!!

And I'm not sure that the UK has a free-trade pact with the US as the EU negotiates anything to do with trade for the UK

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Do you have any links as I am not aware of any?

Most likely.

quote:

I don't think the US particularly needs to train any of those countries (including Israel) if anything I would have thought it more likely to be the other way round (esp re UK and Israel) Training excersises maybe, but thats not training. Also it does not "arm" those countries it sells weapons to them which is completely different.

Yes like I said, trains, and equips its allies. The relationship is mutual, the allies also train and equip the USA. Train, training exercises, same thing.

quote:

And ont "fights with" Completely true, for everyone but Israel! Or is that the other way round? Maybe America's Middle Eastern adventures are for Israel's benefits? After all, Saddam was no threat to the West. There is no way he was gonna sell weapons to a group whose primary aim was the overthrow of Middle Eastern governments, so where would those WMDs be targeted at? Hmmmm....

Yes excatly, Israel is so clever it was able to convience the USA to expend $300+ billion and the lives of thousands of its soldiers just because they were 'scared' of Saddam.

However, USA forces do fight with Israel in the occupied territories and on covert operations in other locations in the world.

They do not participate in the war in Iraq, because unlike Denmark, UK, etc, the USA has not asked them to participate, and Israel realizing that its participation would jeprodize the USA alliance, did not offer this participation. Had the USA asked, I garuntee you Israel would have sent troops or monies.

Right now Israel does provide the USA with a logistics and supply base for the war.

quote:

So, to put it another way - does Israel fight for America like the UK or Denmark or France fight for America? No

The USA relationship with Israel is still young (only really maturing as an alliance in 1973). Regardless, perhaps youc an enlighten me when in recent history the French fought for the USA....

quote:

Israel is "technically" at war with Syria.

Actually its technically at war with some 20+ Arab states.

quote:

If you're talking about being at war with terrorists, then so were the UK, but did America send us billions in aid? Did they fuck! They sent money to the fucking terrorists!!!

The USA is sending Israel aid primarly due to the peace initiative it signed with Egypt and Jordan. The USA gives similar monies to Egypt and Jordan. Also it interjected and gave economic concessions during your own war with the IRA.

But to put it plainly, Israel is recieving USA aid for military and economic development because it, unlike most of its other allies, needs it.

And I'm not sure that the UK has a free-trade pact with the US as the EU negotiates anything to do with trade for the UK [/QUOTE]

___________________
SAVE ZIONIST MUSTARD: BUY ZIONIST KETCHUP!


Click here to support the free mustard alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Why would having "top notch" spy agencies mean they would be allied? The KGB were a "top notch" spy agency but they weren't allied with America

I'm not saying that just because two countries have elite spy services that they always form an alliance.

But in this case:

- America needs information from the middle east (source of threat)
- Israel has equivalent intelligence services to the US

Israel is always in a precarious position in terms of international support. This could be for many reasons, including:

- Mossad frequently violates international law to protect Israel (ie. sneaking into France to kill a Canadian scientist who was assissting Iraq with rocket technology).
- Many people across the world either love - or in most cases - hate the notion of a Jewish state.
- The Jews still face anti-semitism from areas of Europe, and still have tenuous relationships with other religious figureheads (eg. the Pope).

Anyways, the point is that America's support can boost Israel into a formidable international position. Thus, Israel and America enter a mutually benefiting alliance.

Alliance is formed.

Last edited by cap on Aug-25-2005 at 18:59

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Most likely.

I asked cos I am interested!

quote:

Yes excatly, Israel is so clever it was able to convience the USA to expend $300+ billion and the lives of thousands of its soldiers just because they were 'scared' of Saddam.

Or...maybe members of government are rabidly Zionist?

quote:

However, USA forces do fight with Israel in the occupied territories and on covert operations in other locations in the world.

Such as? (And fighting in the occupied territories is hardly Israel fighting for America is it? Its America fighting for Israel)

quote:

They do not participate in the war in Iraq, because unlike Denmark, UK, etc, the USA has not asked them to participate, and Israel realizing that its participation would jeprodize the USA alliance, did not offer this participation. Had the USA asked, I garuntee you Israel would have sent troops or monies. Right now Israel does provide the USA with a logistics and supply base for the war.

Ok I can perfectly appreciate why Israel does not fight in Iraq, but throughout history, Israel has never helped America out in overt military operations all over the world

quote:

The USA relationship with Israel is still young (only really maturing as an alliance in 1973). Regardless, perhaps youc an enlighten me when in recent history the French fought for the USA....

Er...Iraq (1991), Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan?

quote:

The USA is sending Israel aid primarly due to the peace initiative it signed with Egypt and Jordan. The USA gives similar monies to Egypt and Jordan. Also it interjected and gave economic concessions during your own war with the IRA. But to put it plainly, Israel is recieving USA aid for military and economic development because it, unlike most of its other allies, needs it.

You wouldn't need it if you got out of the territories!!

Have you any idea how much money is wasted on the settlers? The cost the govt pays for them to live there and the cost of the security? Not to mention to cost of lives in Israel proper as a response. And where is a shit load of that money coming from? And aren't America stumping up half the compensation for the settlers?

quote:

Originally posted by cap I'm not saying that just because two countries have elite spy services that they always form an alliance. But in this case: - America needs information from the middle east (source of threat) - Israel has equivalent intelligence services to the US Israel is always in a precarious position in terms of international support. This could be for many reasons, including: - Mossad frequently violates international law to protect Israel (ie. sneaking into France to kill a Canadian scientist who was assissting Iraq with rocket technology). - Many people across the world either love - or in most cases - hate the notion of a Jewish state. - The Jews still face anti-semitism from areas of Europe, and still have tenuous relationships with other religious figureheads (eg. the Pope). Anyways, the point is that America's support can boost Israel into a formidable international position. Thus, Israel and America enter a mutually benefiting alliance. Alliance is formed.

So you dont think religion comes into it at all?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley So you dont think religion comes into it at all?

Let's be honest. America is not a very religious country. Sure, George Bush prances around like he's a good Christian, but we all know it's just a big show to attract a targeted voting audience.

When analyzing any of America's actions, rather than look for religious agendas or motivations, I would first ask myself: How can America profit, increase world economic and military domination, or improve homeland security.

America did choose a non-Arab country to openly support, so I guess religion did come into play, but is certaintly not America's primary concern.

quote:

Originally posted by cap Let's be honest. America is not a very religious country. Sure, George Bush prances around like he's a good Christian, but we all know it's just a big show to attract a targeted voting audience.

Not a very religious country?! Its practically a theocracy ffs!!

quote:

When analyzing any of America's actions, rather than look for religious agendas or motivations, I would first ask myself: How can America profit, increase world economic and military domination, or improve homeland security.

Allying yourselves with Israel improves homeland security?!

quote:

America did choose a non-Arab country to openly support, so I guess religion did come into play, but is certaintly not America's primary concern.

No it chose a non-Soviet country to support. America didn't initiate the alliance due to religion, but it continues because of religion. Have you ever wondered why democrats and republicans argue over who would support Israel the most if they got in power? Why would they even care? Why would it be such an important election issue? Why did Bush say Kerry would sacrifice Israel if elected? What would Bush gain out of that? Maybe he thought the public would be so shocked at the thought of not getting all that wonderful "economic benefits"? Or maybe it was cos of religion?

Early on Israel was embracing socialistic principles and was actually supported by the USSR. However shortly after they switched to a more democratic form of gov't that's where the U.S. realize that they could have a strong ally in a region that is not friendly towards, indifferent at best, the Western world. Israel is a strong and important ally in all kinds of shapes and sizes. It's not about religion because U.S.A. isn't a religious state whatsoever. There are alot of court cases and such based on the religious law but that could happen in the most liberal countries, for example Spain a very conservative and Catholic country has an huge ammount of people who want to legalize homosexual weddings and shit.

What it all comes down to is a term called Harmony of Interest. This is something that all European countries and nowdays the U.S. employ when "helping" others. Take, for example, Hawaii and Micronesia (sp), the US "helped" them out because they needed shit from them, however you can't just come in and take it you gotta give them something in return. So you go and say something like "Listen, we'll help you with some technology and you give us something like your recon tech and such" and Israel, being non-retards, go "well, hell yes" whatever the agenda behind it is not exectly common sense as some people claim it is. it's not just USA is ran by Jews and Israellis need someone like the USA to help them out, though it could be partially true though highly unlikely to be the major cause.

___________________
My SpaceMySpaceMUSIC
Anti-Purple Alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by cap Let's be honest. America is not a very religious country.

quote:

How religion defines America By Dr Richard Land Southern Baptist Convention Unlike some other Western countries, the United States remains an overwhelmingly religious society. The BBC programme What the World Thinks of God examines the modern world's relationship with God. Among those taking part is Dr Richard Land who explains how profoundly religion influences American society and politics. The USA is a very religious society. Evidence abounds demonstrating Americans' deep and abiding religious convictions. A Gallup Poll released in November 2003 found that six out of ten Americans said that religion was "very important" in their lives. FAITH IN AMERICA Protestant (White Evangelical) 30% Roman Catholics 25% Protestant (Liberal) 20% Protestant (African-American) 8% Jewish 2% Other 15% Source: City University of New York (2001) In contrast, in Canada and the United Kingdom, two societies often perceived as quite similar to the United States, only 28% and 17% respectively described religion as similarly important in their lives. A survey done in 2001 by the City University of New York Graduate Center found that 85% of Americans identify with some religious faith. The same study concluded that by most standards the United States was a more professingly religious country than any European nations except Ireland and Poland. Conservative belief Most Americans believe in the literal truth of Old Testament stories The religious convictions of Americans tend toward the conservative end of the spectrum. An ABC news poll, done in February 2004, found that approximately 60% of Americans believe that the Genesis creation account, Noah's ark and a global flood, and Moses' parting of the Red Sea are "literally true." Belief in the literal veracity of these biblical accounts was highest among the fastest growing segment of American faith, evangelical Protestantism (nearly 90% acceptance). How does such robust religious faith impact and influence American government and the nation's domestic and foreign policies? Religious vote An ABC news exit poll taken on Election Day 2000 found that among the 42% of voters who attended religious services at least once a week, 58% voted for Bush. Conversely, Gore won 61% among the 14% of Americans who reported they never attended religious services. Perhaps 40% of President Bush's total raw vote was provided by self-identified "evangelical" Christians Dr Richard Land It is difficult to imagine the United States electing a candidate with the beliefs and policies of a George W. Bush, or for that matter a Ronald Reagan, without the strong role an increasingly conservative faith plays in tens of millions of Americans' lives. Some estimates conclude that perhaps 40% of President Bush's total raw vote was provided by self-identified "evangelical" Christians. Religion and society How does this deep and abiding religious belief impact American society? According to an ICM poll in January 2004, Americans believe in the supernatural (91%), an afterlife (74%), "belief in a God/higher power makes you a better human being" (82%), God or a higher power judged their actions (76%), and perhaps most tellingly "would die for their God/beliefs" (71%). In 1880 Dostoyevsky wrote in The Brothers Karamazov that "If God does not exist, then everything is permissible." The history of his native Russia, wracked by the atrocities of atheistic communism for most of the 20th century, serves as a most graphic example of the truth of his conclusion. Nazism, above all detested religion because it called for allegiance to something greater than the state, namely God. President Bush at the opening of a Bible fellowship centre in Texas When 71% of Americans say they would die for their faith, they are pledging allegiance to a loyalty beyond their loyalty to their country and are saying the exact polar opposite of "my country, right or wrong." It is very important at this point to make a critical distinction: to be willing to die for one's faith is utterly different than to kill for it. The overwhelming majority of Americans, religious and otherwise, would never feel that it is morally acceptable to kill, or even discriminate against, someone because they were of a differing faith or no faith. As an evangelical Christian, I would not only die for my faith, I would die for any person's right to live their lives according to the dictates of their own consciences. My personal commitment to the soul liberty of every human being is as deep as my commitment to Jesus Christ as my Saviour and Lord. Like virtually all Americans of faith, I believe that a person's relationship to his or her God is a sacred matter which no other human being or group of human beings (government or religious communion) has the right to forcibly interfere with or seek to coerce. As an evangelical Christian I believe in the right to share my faith and to seek to persuade others, as they have an equal right to seek to persuade me, but force or coercion - never!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...god/3518221.stm



Trust me you don't want to mess with George he knows what he is talking about.

I guess I don't know what the US is mate

___________________
My SpaceMySpaceMUSIC
Anti-Purple Alliance.