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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Jesus George! That's 3 posts of the same thing! Anyways, that's exactly why Iran SHOULD have nukes. By invading Iraq, that's exactly the lesson that the US is teaching the rest of the World. You'd better have nukes to deter invasion/war.

I can see your logic but there are other ways to deter America from invading - like NOT going out of your way to give them every excuse under the sun to attack! Sorry but I cannot see any 'plus points' for Iran having nuclear weapons. It will destabalise the Middle East and God forbid, if they ever choose to use them...

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Plus, I'd like to see the West's control over the Middle East diminish. I'm sick of status quo Goverments there that are US tools and prevent any sort of positive economic or political change in the Middle East. I'm sick of the misery in the Middle East so that transnational coorperations can have bigger oil profits and control of the oil. Fuck that. I think it would be awesome if EVERY middle eastern country had nukes.

You pin the blame of the state of the Middle East solely at the door of America? While I acknowledge there is certainly an element of truth there to say it is all America's fault is showing a somewhat naive understanding of the Middle East and it's history over the last century. Preventing "positive economic or political change" has been the action of most Middle East regimes be they allied to America or not...

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Fuck that. I think it would be awesome if EVERY middle eastern country had nukes.

Maybe you'd find it awsome, I'm sure the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki thought it would be "awsome" if America had nukes in 1945, or maybe not? I know your feelings towards America, hell I probably share most of them but I think sometimes you let that get in the way of the issue at hand. You're saying wouldn't it be cool if every state in the Middle East had nukes...well no, it would not be cool

They'd all be dead

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but how does possessing nukes deter attack from the US? they dont have the ability to get the nukes to america. so how does one use nukes in defence, in a conventional war, on their own territory?? yeah, a bunch of totalitarian regimes that believe in martyrdom possessing nukes, thats just the best idea ever

They could bomb American positions outside of Iran (like the major military bases in Iraq or Kuwait) or bomb their naval fleet

Actually while were on the subject...

How did Saddam get out of Iraq?

Iran

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Originally posted by George Smiley Preventing "positive economic or political change" has been the action of most Middle East regimes be they allied to America or not...

Do you mean like when the Iranian parliament nationalized their oil industry so that the profits would be realized by Iran and not the multinational oil corporations? We overthrew that democratically elected government pretty quickly after they pulled that one on us!

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php

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Originally posted by George Smiley They could bomb American positions outside of Iran (like the major military bases in Iraq or Kuwait) or bomb their naval fleet

The most likely scenario would be them bombing Israel in retaliation to U.S attacks.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Do you mean like when the Iranian parliament nationalized their oil industry so that the profits would be realized by Iran and not the multinational oil corporations? We overthrew that democratically elected government pretty quickly after they pulled that one on us! http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php

Not sure if you missed the point or whether you're deliberately being pedantic but thats one event, I'm talking about the entire modern history of the Middle East...(and I even said there was blame to be laid at America's feet)

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Originally posted by Trancer-X The most likely scenario would be them bombing Israel in retaliation to U.S attacks.

Possible, tho baring in mind Israel is only small and joined to Lebanon, Jordan and Syria (not to mention Palestine, the whole reason why they would attack Israel!) I dont know what reaction those states would have to being effected by nuclear strikes on Israel? They aren't gonna bomb Jerusalem (I would certainly not have thought so!!) so that leaves Tel Aviv and that's still only a few miles from the West Bank...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Maybe you'd find it awsome, I'm sure the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki thought it would be "awsome" if America had nukes in 1945, or maybe not? I know your feelings towards America, hell I probably share most of them but I think sometimes you let that get in the way of the issue at hand. You're saying wouldn't it be cool if every state in the Middle East had nukes...well no, it would not be cool They'd all be dead

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We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that one way or another. - J. Robert Oppenheimer

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm sick of status quo Goverments there that are US tools and prevent any sort of positive economic or political change in the Middle East.

And while were at it, what do you suggest to change this situation? I assume by 'change' you mean towards democracy? You think if America 'leaves' the Middle East a load of democracies will sprout up? Aint gonna happen mate. Lebanon and Palestine are the only two democratic (ish) states (ish for Palestine!) I can think of in the Arab Middle East, why is there not more? Cos America wants it that way? They did, now the neocons have taken over (again, ish!) they want democracy (our version obviously) so you get the Iraq war. Can you think of any other way in which the Middle East regimes will give away their power to their people? If you think these regimes will simply give away their power then you have even less of an understanding of Middle Eastern politics than I said before!!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley Not sure if you missed the point or whether you're deliberately being pedantic but thats one event, I'm talking about the entire modern history of the Middle East...(and I even said there was blame to be laid at America's feet)

Sure, that was one event - an event that imbued an entire generation with anti-American and anti-imperialist sentiments.

The entire Middle East has at one point or another been a pawn to Colonial interests, whether they be British, Dutch or American - that much is already given.