quote:

Originally posted by -])ark-Maverick Nou, good one. You are right there, many of these animals would not exist if we didn't eat them. Cows is a perfect example. My only defense here, is that it's possible for a life to not be worth living. But yeah, this is a good counter-arguement, but the response here would be that just because there are more animals, doesn't make it better, because these animals are living lives that are worse than death.

Why don't you ask the cows that and see if they agree that their life isn't worth living if there's some suffering at the end? Oh wait...

People suffer every day. I'll worry about some critters suffering after we end the suffering of humans. You PETA people have your priorities a bit out of whack. Stop wasting your time worrying about inferior species and worry about the one to which you belong.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

ahahaha. Go back, read over the rest of the thread. I spend more time defending human rights then I do animal rights. That's about it for me responding to your concerns, them don't seem well founded and all, and most of them have been answered...

I concede that these animals have evolved because of us, but the idea was founded on a misconception. Just because it was right in the past, does not make it right now. I'm sure that these animals do serve a purpose. Cows can still provide milk, chickens can still provide eggs. It's the way they are raised. If we really really want meat, like most of us do, then fine, so be it. But let the animals live in free range farms. Don't cage them up, don't treat them like inanimate objects.
Sorry for the quick response, I'm running late for an exam.

PS- oh yeah, I doubt that life is pointless. I don't think I should have to explain this one (nor could I if you were sincere in your oringial statement)

Sorry if I miss some points, dead week is hell.

Groundhog Boy:

quote:

People suffer every day. I'll worry about some critters suffering after we end the suffering of humans. You PETA people have your priorities a bit out of whack. Stop wasting your time worrying about inferior species and worry about the one to which you belong.

The difference is, all you have to do is take mainstream (not free range) meat or meat all together out of your diet to be progressive on the issue. Not only are you a walking advertisment for the cause, (when you discuss the subject with people) but you are also saving the lives of animals. We aren't asking you to go campaign everyday for animal rights. You can practice one, advocate the other.

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You PETA people

You obviously didn't read my ealier posts. STOP ASSOCIATING ALL VEGETARIANS AND VEGANS WITH PETA. I personally dislike a lot of the PETA tactics and it pisses me off when people immediately associate me with the organization, the EXTREME.

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Unless you go totally out of your way to make sure that you eat certain foods with a vegetarian diet you won't get the nutriotion your body needs and could get through a well balanced diet. I've also been told some products are difficult to find, and when found are quite expensive. So, if my diet isn't bad, doesn't require a lot of effort, and doesn't require me to do anything other than stay in balance why again is your diet more health conscious or practical than mine.

Yeah, it's called not being lazy =P. Plus I think becoming a vegetarian has made me a ton more knowledgable in the area of nutrition and balancing a diet. When you are forced to plan out meals and their nutritional content, you don't end up eating a steak and drinking a coke while smoking a cigar =P. And it really isn't as bad as you think. After you become acustom to what foods have what nutriets you need, you can plan out meals just as fast as a normal meat eater, and they will most likely contain more of the essential nutrients you need.

And I happen to find soy burgers incredibly tasty

I'm not even going to address the taste and suffering comment, sorry.

And I think if honostly a cow had a choice of growing up in a metal cage with absolutely no movement whatsoever, only a bottle shoved in their face to force feed them, they would probably choose not to be born at all.

Sorry if I missed anything. Call me out on it and I'll try to reply asap when I get some free time.

quote:

Originally posted by priveye03 Sorry if I miss some points, dead week is hell. Groundhog Boy: You obviously didn't read my ealier posts. STOP ASSOCIATING ALL VEGETARIANS AND VEGANS WITH PETA. I personally dislike a lot of the PETA tactics and it pisses me off when people immediately associate me with the organization, the EXTREME.

This is a PETA thread, is it not? That's how this whole argument got started.

quote:

Yeah, it's called not being lazy =P. Plus I think becoming a vegetarian has made me a ton more knowledgable in the area of nutrition and balancing a diet. When you are forced to plan out meals and their nutritional content, you don't end up eating a steak and drinking a coke while smoking a cigar =P. And it really isn't as bad as you think. After you become acustom to what foods have what nutriets you need, you can plan out meals just as fast as a normal meat eater, and they will most likely contain more of the essential nutrients you need. And I happen to find soy burgers incredibly tasty I'm not even going to address the taste and suffering comment, sorry. And I think if honostly a cow had a choice of growing up in a metal cage with absolutely no movement whatsoever, only a bottle shoved in their face to force feed them, they would probably choose not to be born at all. Sorry if I missed anything. Call me out on it and I'll try to reply asap when I get some free time.

This wasn't my quote, it was WM2's quote, so please don't attribute it to me. Thanks.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by -])ark-Maverick I'm not against eating meat, only factory farmed meat where conditions are appalling.

quote:

Originally posted by -])ark-Maverick In fact, I support the traditional farm. These animals lead awesome wonderful lives, and feel little suffering when they die. It's factory farming that's bad.

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Originally posted by -])ark-Maverick But let the animals live in free range farms. Don't cage them up, don't treat them like inanimate objects.

First of all you must be more specific when ou say "traditional" and "free range". If by traditional farm you mean a single unit, substance farm, there isn't enough arable land in the ENTIRE world for every American family to practice this. Nevermind every world family. When you say free range, I going to assume you don't mean true free range or open range where there are no fences and such. However if all meat was raised on free range farms the cost of such meat would be astonomical and I wonder how much land would actually be taken up if all cattle and poultry was in free range ranches.

Suffering, suffering, suffering...

You keep pounding this point home. I ask you: Is all the produce you buy and consume "organically" grown, i.e. no pesticides, chemical fertilizers and such? If not then you are just as guilty of causing animal suffering as someone who eats meat. The pesticides and chemicals used in most "farms" has been PROVEN to cause "suffering" here and there in wildlife and other areas.
I ask you: Do you drive a car? The pollution created by and as a result of its production causes "suffering" all over the world, in animals and in humans.
I ask you: Do you live in a city, or in a house surrounded by similiar dwellings, is there another human residing within 2 miles of you? Because if so, you are causing the suffering of wildlife that YOU have displaced off its natural habitat. You are contributing to the shrinking habitats of countless species and are contributing to the shrinking biodiversity of this world.

Even if you "passed" these questions, do you think that EVERYONE in the world can follow suit? And if they do try, don't you think that this would cause much HUMAN suffering.

Everything comes down to the bottom line: Money. Is it economically feasible to have only "traditional" farms, or only grow "organic" crops? If on the large scale it is, how will the people who are barely scraping by now afford such an increase in living cost?

Trying to eliminate "un-necessary" animal suffering by the methods you have put forward will inevitably cause "un-necessary" human suffering. So ask yourself:
Which suffering is more important the animal's? Or human suffering?

Yeah, it is going to be difficult. You know what, I have little faith that things will change right now. But you know what, it's wrong. Regardless if it's possible, we should still continue to strive for the best situations. PETA takes a very fringe approach, hoping people will try to fall somewhere closer to the middle.
As far as the products I buy, sure, I sometimes buy products that involve suffering of animals and humans. But I try my hardest not to. I make an effort, that's all I ask anyone else.

I don't think it logically follows that lack of animal suffering causes human suffering. But even if it does, we can do something about it. If a person absolutely needs meat to survive, then so be it. I have no problem with that. It's the fat guy having 5 double cheese burgers that bothers me.

quote:

Originally posted by -])ark-Maverick It's the fat guy having 5 double cheese burgers that bothers me.

That's about the first thing you've said in this thread that I've agreed wholeheartedly with

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

I'll try to post asap, but getting continuously hammered by papers.

We need to hurry up and breed Ameglian Major cows. Problem solved.

"May I urge you to try my liver, it must be very rich and tender by now, I have been force feeding it for months?"

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