quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard You are so incorrect. Well before we took a combat role in Afghanistan we were named as a country to be targeted. This has nothing to do with our current political or military engagements but our society and the values upon which it is based. Those that seek to destabalize/destroy the west want to put an end to our way of life because they believe it to be unholy... it has nothing to do with foriegn policy and everything to do with culture.

If they wanted to end our way of life because they believe it to be unholy, don't you think they'd start with Amsterdam?

Of course it has to do with Canada's political and military engagements! Whether you call Canada's mission in Afghanistan between 2002-2004 a "combat role" or not, the fact that we had soldiers there, OCCUPYING a foreign land without any valid evidence, paved the way for al-Qaeda to name Canada in its hit-list in 2004.

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard It will never happen because taking steps to stop these people would necessitate that the Islamic community first judge these people to be acting against Islam. Since the religion holds that only God can judge such things you'll never get the community as a whole to condem these actions let alone do anything to stop them.

Sorry, buddy, but that's totally wrong. God isn't the only person to judge when someone is acting against Islamic or Quranic principles.

quote:

Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit sorry thats bs, using gods name in vain is all they are doing, any regular practicing muslim can tell another that his or her actions are wrong, and try to convince them by referring to the quraan.

+1, but there's a little more to it...

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard It may be as you say but any muslim passing judgment on them is a heritic according to the Quraan, subsequently, it is unlikely we will ever see a widespread condemnation of these people from within their own community.

The only judgement left to God in our religion is whether or not someone will go to heaven or hell. That is what God will judge. For everything else, God has given us guidelines to follow, AND punishements for those who don't follow them. In the early days, it was the leader of the Muslim empire (caliph) who had the authority to judge whether or not a Muslim disobeyed the Sharia law.
Today, religious-based governments like Saudi Arabia (it's a stretch because of the monarchy--many people believe that such a system is inconsistent with Islamic principles) there are Sharia courts with Muslim scholars who will judge. There have been criminals who bombed the Ka'aba in Makkah where innocent people died in the late 80s/early 90s (I remember because I visited Makkah just weeks before it happened) and their penalty was a swift, clean death.
So yes, it is within our power as Muslims to judge another Muslim's actions right or wrong, in accordance with the principles prescribed in the Quran and hadith.

There is a great hadith (saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) on this matter:
"If you see someone doing something wrong, go and physically stop them. If you cannot physically stop them, yell at them to stop. If you can't tell them to stop, just try to stop them in your heart. Then you've done your duty as a Muslim."

And that's what the Muslim community of GTA is doing today. Physically, verbally, and in our hearts.

P.S. The only person who is knowledgable enough to speak politics in here is hardcore trancer.

quote:

Originally posted by fayraree P.S. The only person who is knowledgable enough to speak politics in here is hardcore trancer.

Dude, I agree with a lot of what you've said in both threads, but this deserves a

quote:

Originally posted by fayraree P.S. The only person who is knowledgable enough to speak politics in here is hardcore trancer.

ROTFLMAO!! Ha Ha Ha

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r True, but all those other communities aren't segregating themselves because of their actions of potential violence or wanting to live under the thumb of Sharia Law either HERE in the West. That's not to say that the whole Muslim community wants that, but they seem to breed a lot of contention in some aspects. I'm all for a mixed culture, that's why I love Toronto so much, however let's not adversely affect the others around you either.

Here's the problem though, you are splitting hairs in a non-sensical way. Every community that is as heavily defined by either it's nationality or religion as Muslims, Jews, Italians, Russians etc are is heavily internalized socially by it's nature. A large group of people removed from their traditions naturally gather together.

Muslims aren't segregating all of a sudden becaue of " their potential violent action" or the wish for Sharia Law, they've always been their own community, and have done so peacefully for decades now.

Accussing the whole Muslim community of being "distant" for dubious reasons, and that they want to "breed a lot of contention" just reeks of paranoia and ignorance. In all honesty, you sound like an American on a witchhunt trying to rationalize what he doesn't understand, and demonize when you don't reach a solid conclusion.


You're politically correct disclaimer notices are a nice touch though.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I have nothing against any Muslims, in fact have a few muslim friends and co-workers, but their community seems to want to ostrasize themselves from the greater community whole.

As for yours and other's demands that the Muslim Community weed these people out, how do you know there aren't already efforts underway? Also, what would you expect them to do?? Let's have your master plan for anti-terrorism!! It's not like the majority of people with views of this nature parade them out in the open. Whether it's Christian fundamentalists blowing up abortion clinics in the US, or federal buildings, or Muslim extremists in Canada, people who plan this sort of action don't broadcast their intent.

From the sounds of things, you have little to no experience with the Muslim community, and decide to fill in the blanks with conjecture and accusations about what they are doing and what they should be doing.

quote:

Originally posted by crazedcanuck Here's the problem though, you are splitting hairs in a non-sensical way. Every community that is as heavily defined by either it's nationality or religion as Muslims, Jews, Italians, Russians etc are is heavily internalized socially by it's nature. A large group of people removed from their traditions naturally gather together. Muslims aren't segregating all of a sudden becaue of " their potential violent action" or the wish for Sharia Law, they've always been their own community, and have done so peacefully for decades now. Accussing the whole Muslim community of being "distant" for dubious reasons, and that they want to "breed a lot of contention" just reeks of paranoia and ignorance. In all honesty, you sound like an American on a witchhunt trying to rationalize what he doesn't understand, and demonize when you don't reach a solid conclusion. You're politically correct disclaimer notices are a nice touch though.

Thanks, I think.

The disclaimers were there for a reason though and that was to hopefully avoid what you are suggesting above.
I don't want it to sound like a witchhunt, believe me, but we simply don't hear enough from the Muslim community in times like these either because the media chooses not to hi-light it or there simply isn't enough noise coming from the community for me to take notice.
I really hope it's the former for their and everyone else's sake.

quote:

As for yours and other's demands that the Muslim Community weed these people out, how do you know there aren't already efforts underway? Also, what would you expect them to do?? Let's have your master plan for anti-terrorism!!

The ball isn't in my court either to do something that really should be happening within.
It would be nice if they had a plan or at least let the rest of us know exactly what their intensions are in this matter for the future besides simply having a stoic letter of regret ready when something happens.
I'm sure that's acceptable for some, but others want assurances, not placation.

quote:

It's not like the majority of people with views of this nature parade them out in the open. Whether it's Christian fundamentalists blowing up abortion clinics in the US, or federal buildings, or Muslim extremists in Canada, people who plan this sort of action don't broadcast their intent.

Sorry if I label this as /obvious but yes, /obvious

quote:

From the sounds of things, you have little to no experience with the Muslim community, and decide to fill in the blanks with conjecture and accusations about what they are doing and what they should be doing.

I, of course, am not Muslim and try to learn from my friends and do ask questions here and there.
I'm not totally devoid of their religion but at the same time, I don't necessarily need to suddenly turn into a Muslim to understand them either.
Most Muslims I've met are great people but it's not the individuals that are under scrutiny here; it's their community leadership that need to start making some serious noise in the extremism catagory.
If these radicals are known to be spouting off their disgust in the local mosques or anywhere else in their community, their community, by basic principal, should be letting someone of authority know.
Where's the harm in that?
Call that conjecture or accusing if you wish, I just call it an elementary societal duty or just being neighborly.
Who wouldn't want to know that a rouge group of individuals is planning to bomb and kill innocent indiscriminately??
By choosing not to tell someone, is akin to withholding evidence in any court case and this is what I have issue with.

I hope this clears up any misconceptions crazedcanuck.

you going to see Lawler tonight? woot! woot!

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

My problem with your criticism of Muslims leaders in our community are two-fold.

First, ever since 9/11 they have been @ the forefront of every aspect of the media in Canada. From the Police and Government held pressconferences, of which they are integrated and a part of, to just about every talk radio/tv format that deals with political and world events. Areas of media that have traditionally WASP ridden debate forums now include a very diverse group of "specialists' in areas that deal the the Middle-East and Islam in general. I think it's fair to say the majority voice of the Canadian Muslim has been making an effort to be invloved on this issue.

Whether or not you equate that with being pro-active in their own community is another thing.

Second, aside from grass-roots work in that respect, and assisting law enforcement should the need arise, what would you have them do?? Take out a print ad in every major paper to soothe your worried state?You criticise, yet offer no solution. Probably because as a matter of practicality, there isn't much the Muslim community as a whole can do about this small group of radicals. They are likely just as distant from the radicals, as you and I are from the average Muslim.


There is nothing wrong with wanting the community as a whole to be proactive. But to say they aren't when you haven't researched the matter, and to go a step farther and accuse them of being distant and "breeding contention" and essentially claiming they are causing viloence being a segregated community is downright wrong, and borders on bigotry.

Now I'm not accusing of being a bigot, and the fact that you are a nice person who can carry on a intelligent debate in a rational manner tells me you indeed aren't. Yet the way you present your fears and objections and arguments so far carries that tone, although I believe it's unintentional.

It's fine to have questions, we all do regarding something as senseless as this, yet don't answer them yourself with conjecture and accusations.. research those answers first before drawing half-assed conclusions and demands.

Cheers,

Rob

These aren't assumptions though.
These are just my experiences with the whole situation.
Now I don't consider myself to be a bigot even though it might appear that way to you in my arguements, but it's also not my place to tell them what they should be doing either; hence I'm not about to try and tell them how to solve their own internal problems.
Just because I'm not Muslim doesn't mean I can't have cause for concern either.
This is one of our biggest problems in Canada and you've tripped over it in your own arguement; why can't we talk about the Muslim community with concern?
Is the fact that I'm concerned somehow make me a bigot? It is because they happen to be Muslim I somehow can't say anything without coming across and being labelled a bigot?
You call it critizism, I call it concern; big difference.

I'm not saying the Muslim community hasn't been there in the media; I blame the media for not helping them more honestly but yes, if there is more plotting out there (and there is according to CSIS), I'd like to know something is being done about it. Call me crazy or biggoted or whatever floats your boat but when I see things like this in the media I wonder how deluded we really are:

quote:

Meanwhile, the Canadian Islamic Congress, a Muslim organization taken seriously by the press here, put out a statement urging Canadian governments to “fund legitimate academic research” to help find out “why and how imported extremist ideologies are finding their way to some vulnerable Canadian Muslim youth.”One Toronto imam called the arrests “an attack on the Muslim community” and went on to say,“We are abusing our boys for the sake of pleasing George Bush.”

>>Source<<
...now you have got to be joking me.
They want taxpayers to pay for funding to do a study on this? Are they for real??
And you wonder why I'm concerned...

On the subject of the 'specialists' what exactly do they (we?) need 'specialists' for?
They're human just like anyone else.
Why do I need some sort special training on Muslims when they can just act like everyone else and get along??
They can assimulate into Canada like everyone without having to bring in 'specialists' on my behalf thanks.
Can I have another slap in the face please?

quote:

Originally posted by crazedcanuck Second, aside from grass-roots work in that respect, and assisting law enforcement should the need arise, what would you have them do?? Take out a print ad in every major paper to soothe your worried state?You criticise, yet offer no solution. Probably because as a matter of practicality, there isn't much the Muslim community as a whole can do about this small group of radicals. They are likely just as distant from the radicals, as you and I are from the average Muslim.

This is where you're wrong and I have done my homework.
These radicals WHERE known in the community which is the whole focus of my concern.
And I'm not the only one 'concerned' by the way.
This is a great read (abid a little long) but they are essentially mirroring what I've already pointed out --> >>forums.army.ca<<

In the end, this is going to be a long haul for everyone, but Canadians are just now realizing after a long slumber of exemption that the knocking we're heard is now on our own door.
We can choose to ignore it or choose to answer it knowing full well the world is watching our every move.
We're 'supposed' to be the 'Peacekeepers' of this world however, peacekeeping doesn't necessarily mean sitting idle while things happen either.

I may be rambling at this point but let me end by saying this.
My concerns are warranted and are very real so please excuse me if I start asking questions about what's being done about the place in which I live.
It's not being 'paranoid', it's called being realistic.
This isn't something that just going to brush off just because they happen to catch these Jihad-lite yokels.
There are others out there; we've been told so, so let's not just pretend this problem is isolated, turn over and go back to sleep.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Last edited by Fir3start3r on Jun-11-2006 at 05:48

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r These aren't assumptions though. These are just my experiences with the whole situation. Now I don't consider myself to be a bigot even though it might appear that way to you in my arguements, but it's also not my place to tell them what they should be doing either; hence I'm not about to try and tell them how to solve their own internal problems.

Listen, As I intoned earlier, we should all worry, and this is a shared issue, hence why everyone should be involved. This is not the issue I'm taking with your posts. It's your over-genrealized and demonizing of Muslims and their communities.

Also, you claim off the top that you aren't guiding your commentary on assumptions of what Muslim leaders are/aren't doing. This insinuates that you have some sort of experience in the field of drawing out Islamic radicals. Then you wuss out on presenting any plausible strategy as i challenged you to by claiming it's not your place to tell them what to do.

Funny, you've found ample cause to over-state your demands that they do "something" (you love those open-ended broad terms eh?) Just like you found ample reason to judge the Mulsim community as "distant"

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r True, but all those other communities aren't segregating themselves because of their actions of potential violence or wanting to live under the thumb of Sharia Law either HERE in the West. That's not to say that the whole Muslim community wants that, but they seem to breed a lot of contention in some aspects. ... their community seems to want to ostrasize themselves from the greater community whole.

Sigh, you just don't seem to grasp my counter argument, so I'll hammer it home again...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r This is one of our biggest problems in Canada and you've tripped over it in your own arguement; why can't we talk about the Muslim community with concern? Is the fact that I'm concerned somehow make me a bigot? It is because they happen to be Muslim I somehow can't say anything without coming across and being labelled a bigot? You call it critizism, I call it concern; big difference.

It's not about being concerned, we all are. Nowhere have I intoned talking about the Muslim community is a bad thing. It's your perceptions of the community behaviour that you've seemingly applied to Muslims as a whole that I have a problem with. Your prejudging and assumptions of them based on pure conjecture from limited social interaction. You've accused an entire community in this thread of not being pro-active against terrorism, of being intentionally distant due to having a violent inclination towards us all.

Then you turn around the discussion by saying I've "tripped" over my own argument?? How so.. by advocating that you seperate your concern from your sweeping generalizations?? That you provide proof of these conclusions you've so expertly deduced

Hey, I was the first one rolling his eyes when Miller was in conference trying to rationalize and humanize it with 'we must find out WHY they would do this" and all kinds of lovey-dovey crap. I'm all for pressuring the Muslim community, however I'm not going to play arm-chair quarterback, nor deduct all Muslims are fairly distant.. THEY MUST BE TERRORISTS OMG!!!11!!

I say we need to be pro-active, and step up our Police, spy, and military readiness. I'm not attacking the paranoia, but your application of it in solving this issue has been downright lacking.


btw, wtf was the army link for... my aunt's best friend she heard about credit cards blah blah.. I don't doubt dubious fundraising happens, but linking to a wives tale that's equally dubious, c'mon, you're sounding like an American spouting off about WMDs.

Last edited by crazedcanuck on Jun-13-2006 at 16:41

quote:

Originally posted by crazedcanuck Listen, As I intoned earlier, we should all worry, and this is a shared issue, hence why everyone should be involved. This is not the issue I'm taking with your posts. It's your over-genrealized and demonizing of Muslims and their communities. Also, you claim off the top that you aren't guiding your commentary on assumptions of what Muslim leaders are/aren't doing. This insinuates that you have some sort of experience in the field of drawing out Islamic radicals. Then you wuss out on presenting any plausible strategy as i challenged you to by claiming it's not your place to tell them what to do. Funny, you've found ample cause to over-state your demands that they do "something" (you love those open-ended broad terms eh?) Just like you found ample reason to judge the Mulsim community as "distant" Sigh, you just don't seem to grasp my counter argument, so I'll hammer it home again... It's not about being concerned, we all are. Nowhere have I intoned talking about the Muslim community is a bad thing. It's your perceptions of the community behaviour that you've seemingly applied to Muslims as a whole that I have a problem with. Your prejudging and assumptions of them based on pure conjecture from limited social interaction. You've accused an entire community in this thread of not being pro-active against terrorism, of being intentionally distant due to having a violent inclination towards us all. Then you turn around the discussion by saying I've "tripped" over my own argument?? How so.. by advocating that you seperate your concern from your sweeping generalizations?? That you provide proof of these conclusions you've so expertly deduced Hey, I was the first one rolling his eyes when Miller was in conference trying to rationalize and humanize it with 'we must find out WHY they would do this" and all kinds of lovey-dovey crap. I'm all for pressuring the Muslim community, however I'm not going to play arm-chair quarterback, nor deduct all Muslims are fairly distant.. THEY MUST BE TERRORISTS OMG!!!11!! I say we need to be pro-active, and step up our Police, spy, and military readiness. I'm not attacking the paranoia, but your application of it in solving this issue has been downright lacking. btw, wtf was the army link for... my aunt's best friend she heard about credit cards blah blah.. I don't doubt dubious fundraising happens, but linking to a wives tale that's equally dubious, c'mon, you're sounding like an American spouting off about WMDs.

I think you're missing my point.
No where in any of my posts did I suggest any sort of 'grand solution'; this is a debate about what the Muslim community is currently doing (and will be doing) about the situation in which they're in.
So pointing out my lack of suggestions is moot at best; there was no intent of doing so on my behalf, I'm meering point out what appears to be a great lack of public awareness on the Muslim community's end.
If that makes me somehow demonize them and makes me the bad guy, oh well; but I'm hardly alone on this front.
You're great at pointing this out yet I haven't seen one link, one source, one newpaper column, or one add to any kind of step by the Muslim community in what they plan to do about this problem.
I've been told there are 'specialists' for this sort of thing. Really?
I guess their too busy trying to get government funding for studies to find out why they can't control their own youth.

I'm not over-stating anything; it's pretty basic really.
In fact, what I'm asking damn right dwarfs anything compared to the catatrophy that was averted thanks to our boys in blue.
I'm simplying asking questions, not plotting any vengence, throw rocks at Mosques or taking a ride down Muslim lane looking for 'ragheads' to vent on.
My assumptions and presumptions are directly proportional to my preceived awareness of their public relations. It behooves me to point out that if I have to DIG for it, they're not making a big enough effort.

Let's take a step back from my supposed 'bigotry' here for a second and ask, what am I doing?
I'm simply debating, on an online political forum, what they plan to do; that's it.
I wouldn't ask any different from any other community had it been them but somehow, because it's the Muslim community, this situation is magically 'touchy' or taboo; like they've been oppressed for oh so many years and my ONE question, somehow questions their integrity.
I'm the bad guy because I ask a straight up question about their own public awareness, which only magically seems to show up in times of controversy, ;especially in a time when they need it most.
That last point can't be stressed enough.
This isn't a 'sweeping generalization' it's a fact.
Maybe they don't understand or forgot that the whole Western world is at war with terrorism which is stemming from Muslim extremists.
They're already under scrutiny from the Canadian public and now, more so from the law, so what I'm asking is pretty humble, yet important. Not only for the rest of us, but for themselves.

Maybe I simply don't understand their strategy in this whole ordeal, however I haven't seen/read/heard anything about that from them to begin with either, have you?
That's all I'm asking here and considering the circumstances, warranted as a 'concerned' citizen, for everyone's sake.
If they don't come out with something, people are going to make assumptions and fill in the blanks for them and that is the whole point right there.
I don't understand why me simply pointing that out is a problem but at least I am.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Well, here we go crazedcanuck, ask and we shall receive.
This is what we need to see and I'm glad it is happening!

quote:

June 10, 2006 Muslims decry violence By MATTHEW CHUNG TORONTO (CP) - Muslim religious leaders urged adherents of the faith Saturday to work to remove a "handful of radical elements" from their community. The Canadian Council of Ahl Sunnah wal Jamaah (CCAS) blamed an alleged bomb plot in Toronto as well as acts of terror in London and Madrid on a small minority of Muslims who suscribe to a "vile doctrine of literalistic ideology." The group emphasized that the "vast majority" of Canadian Muslims suscribe to a moderate form of Islam. "The (CCAS) is convinced that the time has come for Muslim Canadians to adopt a different approach in view of the reality it now finds itself in," said spokesman Akbar Khan. The group, which represents about 30 mosques in B.C., Ontario and Quebec, was responding to the recent arrests in Toronto of 17 men suspected of plotting a terrorist attack. They reminded a news conference that none of the allegations against the men have been proven in court. Khan read a statement calling for a zero-tolerance policy in mosques and community centres against preaching "any form of hatred or intolerance that runs against the grain of traditional Islamic principles." He also said such institutions should run programs and hold events to promote the peaceful teachings of Islam. The group also encourages indvidual Muslims to engage anyone "espousing their own radical interpretation of Islam" and to discourage them from "advocating false ideas." From governments, the CCAS called for a special committee to look into solutions to stop the radicalization of some Muslims. Shaykh Faisal, president of the Islamic Forum of Canada, acknowledged the difficulty of getting across the message that the majority of Canadian Muslims are moderate, patriotic and hard-working while at the same time acknowledging there may be extremists in their mosques. "It is very difficult for us to let people know what the Muslim community is," he said. "We want Canadians to try to get to know Muslims more." He emphasized that Islam teaches peace and that acts of violence cannot be justified through the faith. "We do recognize these are Muslim youth, they have radical views," Faisal said. "But it's not representative of Islamic teachings, because there is nothing in Islam that would justify that." Liberal MP Wajid Khan said he is tired of hearing Muslim speakers emphasizing that Islam is not to blame for the arrests. "Nobody is saying it is (Islam)" he said. "Why are we talking about these 17 people based on faith? "Let's not take the temperature up so high," he said. "There is an issue and we have to address it as a nation."

>>Source<<

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

If you want the population to go along with a war policy, make them distrust, fear, and hate the "other side." It's a technique that's been used through out history, especially in the modern post industrial world. Go take a look at old newpapers etc (I actually had to do this research for a paper, and I was going through "respected" outlets like NY Times and Washington Post). Now you can let your concern turn into fear which turns into hate. The choice is your's.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller