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Originally posted by VERTiG0 I reached the age of reason, and stopped giving a shit.

Speaking of age of reason

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The Age of Reason is a philosophical treatise written by the 18th Century British intellectual Thomas Paine, best remembered as the author of the political pamphlet Common Sense, credited with exciting colonial opinion in support of the American Revolutionary War. The Age of Reason, written in parts during the 1790s and dealing in a systematic examination of organized religion, advocates a skeptical and rational examination of religion known as Deism. Paine stresses his belief in the oneness of God, and the "Word of God" as exemplified by nature and the exercise of reason. Thus, he rejects many of the tenets of both the Old Testament and New Testament. As he stresses: "I sincerely detest it, the Bible as I detest everything that is cruel." Paine provides not only criticism of religion, but a foundation for belief in a supreme being free of the confines of dogma. Paine wrote the first part of the book in France during the first two months following his imprisonment in December 1793. Paine was in jail for protesting the execution of Louis XVI, so this first section was published in a French translation. After his release from prison in November 1794, at the urging of James Monroe, Paine wrote the second part. The completed work was published in 1795. Paine became extremely unpopular at the time due to this book and largely became a social pariah upon his return to America until his death in 1809. Yet his treatise became quite influential in the history of the skeptical, rationalist, and freethinking movements and remains one of the most persuasive critiques of the Bible and every other 'revealed religion' ever written. However, it is often ignored that central to this text is an argument in favor of the existence of a Creator, one based on reason and logic as opposed to the various fundamentalist modes of both religion and atheism.

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Originally posted by AwakenedAddict Well you make an interesting point! This is where religion and I meet However we differentiate on how this should be achieved. Most religions adhere to strict codes of conduct that stipulate what is good and what is bad. This methodology is inherently is flawed because no set of rules can fully prepare someone for making the right decisions in life. Instead, an individual should think introspectively until he or she is satisfied that he/she is doing what is "right". Then act accordingly. PS: yeh, I grew up in a religious household as well

I don't want this to turn into a theological debate, but I can't help but seeing a ton of irony in your post. Religion, just like any other organized group out there isn't all that strict when you get down to it. They change and evolve their standpoints just like any other group. The Christian church is not the same Christian church it was a 1000 years ago. The core basic principles may not really change all that much, but the details always are in flux.

Based on your statement, what really differentiates the rules that a religion lays down to say what is right or wrong, vs what a government lays down to say what is legal or illegal? Both are fluid, and both change in the details of the implementation, and both are never static or they are doomed to fail. Part of the reason that Christianity has excelled is because they have been very opportunistic. They are not a round peg that happened to find a round hole, they became a sorta squarish peg to fit into a sorta pentagonal hole, and have constantly changed itself to sorta fit into different places to benefit themselves.

I think the reason that people view religion as a strict set of edicts and rules is because you can only ever view a small slice of the history of a religion. If you really look into the history of a lot religions, especially long standing ones, assuming you can get by the re-written history of some, you'll actually see they are very fluid and are simply reacting to the changing societies that move around them.

The basic principle in your statement is right, but in practice, most people are very easily influenced, and for the most part, lazy. Religion, government, social clubs, etc, all simply provide a way for people to fit into a group and have the burden of decision making done for them.

I have studied a lot of philosophy in university including an entire course specifically about the existence of god.

There are a number of arguments such as intelligent design and the ontological argument which make it very hard to argue that god doesn't exist.

However in any argument I came across what is proven is that the existence of an all perfect being exists. I never read anything that suggests that the type of god you might want to worship, like the gods depicted in many organized religions exists.

So my answer is that I do believe in an all perfect being, but not in the christian or any other religions god.

I have some interesting articles on the topics, if anyone is interested in them feel free to pm me and i'll see if i can get you a copy.

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Intelligent design is nothing more than thinly-veiled creationism with some "science" thrown over top of it to seem legitimate.

the poll is a dead split

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Do you believe in a god that satisfies?
Do you believe in a god that opens eyes?
Do you believe in a god that tells you lies?
Or do you believe in me?

Do you believe in a god that brings you down?
Do you believe in a god that wears a crown?
Do you believe in a god that makes you bow?
Or do you believe in me?

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Originally posted by shanny However in any argument I came across what is proven is that the existence of an all perfect being exists.

Oh - you mean like the "Q".

Yea, I love the Q. I'd totally believe in them! Omnipotence at its' GREATEST!

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Originally posted by shanny I have studied a lot of philosophy in university including an entire course specifically about the existence of god. There are a number of arguments such as intelligent design and the ontological argument which make it very hard to argue that god doesn't exist. However in any argument I came across what is proven is that the existence of an all perfect being exists. I never read anything that suggests that the type of god you might want to worship, like the gods depicted in many organized religions exists. So my answer is that I do believe in an all perfect being, but not in the christian or any other religions god. I have some interesting articles on the topics, if anyone is interested in them feel free to pm me and i'll see if i can get you a copy.

Wouldn't the arguments have to be convincing, otherwise they would more or less just be statements?

There is no proof of that being, so at best it's a theory. Possibly a very cohesive and well thought out theory, but just a theory. The one thing that science has going for it is that it is always predicated on the fact that it is fallible, so rather than say something is absolute, it says is it is open to change, just prove it, until then it is a theory. Science, however, is very bad and saying whether something should be done, because it never intentioned to make that judgement.

I voted option 3. Sometimes i think i do and other times i think i don't... I was raised as a practicing Catholic until i was 16 but stopped going to church after that (except for christmas mass). It's a tough choice for me, i'm almost too science-minded to believe in it but sometimes i can't help but hope there _is_ a God.

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Originally posted by simms327 perhaps change "do you believe in god" to "do you beleive in a higher power/supreme being" xenu ftw.

+1

There definitely has to be some higher power...and that higher power is potrayed to be God..

And yes, the world is too wonderful to be created by chance and quoted earlier. How did the universe begin????

Last edited by adi26 on Jun-06-2006 at 20:27

I believe that there is a god and Jesus Christ is his son.

I do believe that there is a god.
I was not raised in a religious family as both of my parents are agnostic.
Although I cant really say im catholic, because I am niether baptized, and also because I have my own set of beliefs, the religion I could prolly say im closest to would be catholisism.

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