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Originally posted by tathi "how does Israel expect to maintain the moral high ground when it's actions are as bad as Hamas?"

That's an impossibility and utter nonsense. If the Zionists were on any sort of "moral high ground" ever, or had any sense of elementary morality, pirnciples, or ethics, they wouldn't make a country exclusively for an non-indigenous populuation on LAND THAT WAS ALREADY INHABITED! This whole mess is entirely their fault, and there's simply no debating that. If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place.

I apologize in advance tathi if you took any offence to that, I'm obviously not trying to target you in any way. Even the thought of any moral legitimacy of the state of Israel or it's actions is highly offensive and a slap in the face for the Palestians who've been butchered, brutalized and humiliated for the entire duration of it's existance (i.e. Israel). It doesn't take a vast intellect or a higly sophisticated moral consciousness to figure that one out.

EDIT: Before you guys attack me (Fir3Start3r, Q5 etc.), there is absolutely nothing partisan about sticking to elemtary morality, unless that something unique to the left (and before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not implying that).

EDIT2: Another thing, that doesn't mean I think one side should be eliminated or any nonsense of the sort. Despite the desparity of their plight, both sides need to fucking wake up to the fact that their "leadership" doesn't give 2 shits about the well being or interests of the general population. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, both sides (the people) are fucking sick of this by now and just want to live in peace.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Jul-13-2006 at 06:38

yeah shit, i just read about this on aljazeera.net website... what the fuck is going on here, i didn't think there was THIS much friction there... guess i was wrong.

>JM<

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Originally posted by JM yeah shit, i just read about this on aljazeera.net website... what the fuck is going on here, i didn't think there was THIS much friction there... guess i was wrong. >JM<

LOL "much friction"

iongsdojsdjgsdg


I don't even know to respond to that assumption...





Anyways they bombed Beiruts international airports runways.


Personally I think all those fucking countries, Israel included should just be wiped out. They are seriously a thorn in the side of the rest of the world.

So just to reiterate, it's a good thing that Sharon is gone now right? Despite him being relatively in control with the Hawkish branch of Israelis, so much so that he could diplomatically coordinate prisoner swaps when the situation warranted diplomacy, and he was spearheading disengagement in the west bank following gaza, I'm SO glad that things are so much better with him gone! FFS he was no saint but he was the only leader capable of effectively corraling over-reactionary Israelis through the debacle (complete utter failure? ... I'm still waiting for a government with any kind of effective mandate) that is the Palestinian movement. Not to say I told you so ...

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Retro ...

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Originally posted by Q5echo ...however i would like to see you jump down Opus's throat every once in a while if you are so inclined to guage from the middle.

yeah, i see what youre saying. i guess coz its your party in power its easier to look like a partisan than those criticising it. dont worry, after the dems win the next election ill make sure opus aint free from crit either for what its worth tho, your rants with opus make excellent and informative reading

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Originally posted by Q5echo what sometimes is even more frustrating, though, is centrists (not you in particular) that sit on that fence of some very serious life and death issues and often look down on the rest of us trying to make a difference one way or another, for better or for worse.

look, i totally agree and thats one of the reasons my ideological shift has occured since uni. there are tough situations with even tougher solutions all around us and credit to those people that do their best in the context theyre stuck in.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's an impossibility and utter nonsense. If the Zionists were on any sort of "moral high ground" ever, or had any sense of elementary morality, pirnciples, or ethics, they wouldn't make a country exclusively for an non-indigenous populuation on LAND THAT WAS ALREADY INHABITED! This whole mess is entirely their fault, and there's simply no debating that. If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place. I apologize in advance tathi if you took any offence to that, I'm obviously not trying to target you in any way. Even the thought of any moral legitimacy of the state of Israel or it's actions is highly offensive and a slap in the face for the Palestians who've been butchered, brutalized and humiliated for the entire duration of it's existance (i.e. Israel). It doesn't take a vast intellect or a higly sophisticated moral consciousness to figure that one out. EDIT: Before you guys attack me (Fir3Start3r, Q5 etc.), there is absolutely nothing partisan about sticking to elemtary morality, unless that something unique to the left (and before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not implying that).

firstly, youve totally misread what tathi was saying. he wasnt insinuating that israel have the moral authority, more that they grasp at it in the whole "terrorism" context.

secondly, debating the whole root causes and effects of 1949 is pointless and irrelevant bullshit. as you yourself have said, no side should be eliminated. israel is there to stay. the sooner the militant palestinians accept this the better for everyone. i mean seriously, is this how they wish to reward israel's withdrawals?

whilst israel's creation may be the original problem, you cant argue that the mess since then is entirely their fault. only israelies, palestinians & anti semites/arabs argue either side is 100% to blame.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z EDIT2: Another thing, that doesn't mean I think one side should be eliminated or any nonsense of the sort. Despite the desparity of their plight, both sides need to fucking wake up to the fact that their "leadership" doesn't give 2 shits about the well being or interests of the general population. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the most part, both sides (the people) are fucking sick of this by now and just want to live in peace.

but thats simply not true. you only have to look at hamas' and hezbollah's stance on the destruction of israel to show peace is the last thing on their minds. and no doubt theres a fair few hawks in the israeli cabinet.

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Originally posted by occrider So just to reiterate, it's a good thing that Sharon is gone now right? Despite him being relatively in control with the Hawkish branch of Israelis, so much so that he could diplomatically coordinate prisoner swaps when the situation warranted diplomacy, and he was spearheading disengagement in the west bank following gaza, I'm SO glad that things are so much better with him gone! FFS he was no saint but he was the only leader capable of effectively corraling over-reactionary Israelis through the debacle (complete utter failure? ... I'm still waiting for a government with any kind of effective mandate) that is the Palestinian movement. Not to say I told you so ...

Excuse me, but when was the Sharon administration ever confronted with a smiliar situation? The last soldiers kindapping happened in 1994. In 2000 it was the bodies of three killed soldiers that were handed back, and as far as i can remember, not for the price of 1000 released prisonders.
What goes on right now is at the one hand a provocation, on the other hand simply a TEST, a primitive way to check the new leader's "balls". To see how far you can go, to detect weakness. Te motivation for such actions is already detected weakness as Israel has a smiliar history with Gaza and Southern Lebanon: One-sided withdrawl with no concessions from the other side, which in both cases followed a history of heavy terrorism in these areas. This explains Israel's and particularly Olmert's harsh reaction: The individual politician Omert's wants to prove he's got what it takes, the nation of Israel does the same realizing the very project of Zionism is at stake. While terrorist activities within occupied territory or between it and Israel was at least psychologically always about the foreign land itself, the current attacks from de-facto foreign soil to the sovereign state of Israel is about nothing less than the very existance of the latter. The subject of the current blackmail goes deep into Israel's own independance.

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place. EDIT: Before you guys attack me (Fir3Start3r, Q5 etc.), there is absolutely nothing partisan about sticking to elemtary morality, unless that something unique to the left (and before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not implying that).

i have nothing against what the U.N. did in 1948. do you?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's an impossibility and utter nonsense. If the Zionists were on any sort of "moral high ground" ever, or had any sense of elementary morality, pirnciples, or ethics, they wouldn't make a country exclusively for an non-indigenous populuation on LAND THAT WAS ALREADY INHABITED! This whole mess is entirely their fault, and there's simply no debating that. If it weren't for them, this situation wouldn't exist in the first place.

oh yes, it's our fault. anti-semitism in Europe during ~ 1900 (which led to the first wave of immigration to Israel) has nothing to do with it. so does the Holocaust. the jewish people should have just -- what? set a homeland in the middle of the ocean?

and by the way, the Jewish leadership agreed to the partition of this land (into a Jewish state and an Arab state) in 1947, while the arabs didn't. so they start a war, we win, the land is ours. end of story.

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Originally posted by Nauru Personally I think all those fucking countries, Israel included should just be wiped out. They are seriously a thorn in the side of the rest of the world.

dude, please, shut up.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Iran will probably get involved in this shortly. Things are not looking good over there AT ALL.

Iran wont get involved.

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Originally posted by Nauru Anyways they bombed Beiruts international airports runways.

Yuh. Just read that on teh CNN.com

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Soundcloud

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Originally posted by occrider So just to reiterate, it's a good thing that Sharon is gone now right? Despite him being relatively in control with the Hawkish branch of Israelis, so much so that he could diplomatically coordinate prisoner swaps when the situation warranted diplomacy, and he was spearheading disengagement in the west bank following gaza, I'm SO glad that things are so much better with him gone! FFS he was no saint but he was the only leader capable of effectively corraling over-reactionary Israelis through the debacle (complete utter failure? ... I'm still waiting for a government with any kind of effective mandate) that is the Palestinian movement. Not to say I told you so ...

finally some rationale for the modernist.

for arguments sake, Sharone could work with Abbas, thats a given. the historical hardliners that are still there, whether Likhud or Kadima, look at Hamas' take over as the prelude to war. not the kidnapping. the kidnapping was icing on the cake. hence, IMO Sharone would have done the exact same thing. Israel knew that Abbas' fall from power was a foregone conclusion the day Hamas took control and for Israel, the stage was set.