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Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I understood the thread title to mean that you were freaked out by all 92%. That 31.4% doesn't come as much of a shock to me, but it's still sad.

I AM freaked out by the 92%.

Note that the respondents didn't have to say "Yes". If they held no strong opinions on the subject either way (as the majority of normal people outside America and the Middle East - this just isn't an issue in daily life), they could have responded "Not Sure". In the charts, if you remember, the Yes+No responses did not add up to 100%. In Sweden, 23% said Yes, 23% said No, and 54% said nothing.

But the Americans said YES 92 times out of a hundred. They did not exercise the chance to ignore this contrived, politicized, abnormally blown-out-of-proportion concept that plays NO role in the daily life of most people around the world. Now that makes me very sad indeed.

(Note that I haven't even begun to talk about the intellectual capacity of most Americans - I accept that most people everywhere are "intellectually average" and will not read scientific books by Darwin and Dawkins, but at least most people can be "mentally normal" enough (as opposed to "intelligent") to not consider this issue as anything important.)

Last edited by HardTranceProd on Sep-14-2006 at 22:12

Oh yeah, one more thing for the genius who asked "What's so scary about it" -

My friend, are you scared of radical Islam?

In the same vein, why wouldn't I be scared of radical religiosity in America?

There are already laws in this country that try to regulate "morality" (even though mine might differ from theirs), so who is to say that there won't be even more, stricter, laws, as religion gains the upper hand?

Last edited by HardTranceProd on Sep-14-2006 at 22:26

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid You need to use that little bugger too. You spelled necessary wrong. You slovenian pig!

Wont help, i use a slovenian version of MS Word, the little bugger only spellchecks slovenian words. I figure since he is from england and thus a native english speaker the bugger will work for him while i have to work on my english skills.

And you get points for a proper insult, I will also respond to "You pig from a country that looks like a chicken"

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Originally posted by HardTranceProd What exactly is scary about it? Well, being religious is a sort of a mental illness. For example, if people claim that they hear or see stuff that doesn't exist, or if they hold irrational beliefs, they are labeled as mentally ill, according to the DM-IV manual used by psychologists and psychiatrists in this country. I'm not saying all 92% hear or see or imagine non-existent things, but if 92% described themselves as religous, a sizeable number of Americans hold child-like beliefs. For example, the belief that Santa Claus exists is a child-like belief. The idea that animals have thoughts and ideas ("animism") is a child-like belief. What follows from this is that a sizeable number of Americans have the mentality of children. But since they are not children age-wise, this implies certain mental problems.

I've always loved that argument One can only be amazed how if you hear or see, or feel things that other people don't your a "nut", "delusional", "crazy", or in the case of DM-IV, schizophrenic. Yet religion, where you "feel" a connection to something most people cant feel, hear, or see, something thats "immaterial" or "untochauble" its all ok and it is not to be critisized. Another thing is how its been demostrated that people try to rationalize everything, and it would follow that god is just a rationalization of things we dont understand, yet people pay no attention to these new findings. Of course that is because of another point that has been demonstrated in studies, even when faced with evidence that would provide the outmost certainty, as im sure some of you would argue about not being able to know 100%, people will not desist from believing things that have taken root in their way of understanding things.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

well this thread has jumped the shark

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Originally posted by josh4 well this thread has jumped the shark

i dont get what that means

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard That is about the most ignorant and arrogant statement I've read on these boards in a long time. Faith has nothing to do with intelligence. In many cases faith is a product of one's socialization, in others it is a choice. I defy you to show me some corrolation between faith and cognative function.

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Although there is little research directly linking IQ with levels of religiosity or spirituality,[2] research has revealed a negative correlation between religiosity and some variables usually related with higher IQ, such as educational level and scientific inclination

study

yeah, thats hardly the nail in the coffin but its the best we've got. a negative correlation between "IQ" and religious belief.

even if that study is bullshit, the things required to believe to consider yourself religious are a bit hard to swallow. i dont think being religious makes you stupid, however i think those with a lower IQ are more likely to be influenced by religious doctrine, as they arent as critical.

but feel free to read any of my other posts, theres WAY more arrogant comments floating around

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN study yeah, thats hardly the nail in the coffin but its the best we've got. a negative correlation between "IQ" and religious belief. even if that study is bullshit, the things required to believe to consider yourself religious are a bit hard to swallow. i dont think being religious makes you stupid, however i think those with a lower IQ are more likely to be influenced by religious doctrine, as they arent as critical. but feel free to read any of my other posts, theres WAY more arrogant comments floating around

This study is meaningless in generalizing to a population as the test group was;

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Seventy-seven University of California, Davis, undergraduate students....

Certainly not a large enough sample size to generalize to the University of California Davis campus let alone the US or humanity et al as you have done.

I agree with you in as much that people who exercise a higher level of critical thinking are more likely to reject religion. This is not, however, tantamount to saying that religious people are less intellegent let alone religion "makes you stupid." In fact, I would argue that in order for one to truely understand any religion and make sense of it (given the seemingly contradictory nature of all religions and the philosophical exploration of the subjects they address) one must possess a rather high level of cognative ability.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard This study is meaningless in generalizing to a population as the test group was; Certainly not a large enough sample size to generalize to the University of California Davis campus let alone the US or humanity et al as you have done.

haha, yeah well thats the only one i could find i did note it was possibly bullshit

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I agree with you in as much that people who exercise a higher level of critical thinking are more likely to reject religion. This is not, however, tantamount to saying that religious people are less intellegent let alone religion "makes you stupid."

i never said religion makes you stupid in a serious sense. i just like to bait but yeah, i find religious belief pretty illogical, and if youre gonna start believing in magic, youd wanna have a good hard look at it. and i dont think a lot of people do. and uncritical people with religion at their side are dangerous yes, generalisation, but thats just the impression ive gotten during my life.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard In fact, I would argue that in order for one to truely understand any religion and make sense of it (given the seemingly contradictory nature of all religions and the philosophical exploration of the subjects they address) one must possess a rather high level of cognative ability.

yeah, but dont try and tell me that a) many people "truly" understand any of it or b) understanding religion is inherently different from understanding any other "ism". you might as well argue "to truly understand liberalism you would need to possess a higher than average cognitive ability". meaningless.

obviously there are smart & dumb people of all persuasions but id still be willing to have a wager that your average creationist is a bit behind the rest of us sorry if thats a bit prejudiced, but we all have our faults

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what of all the intelligence and talent wasted by really bright people who've spent their entire lives trying to disprove theories like Evolution and Copernican theory?

some of the smartest people i've ever met were complete fucking morons

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i never said religion makes you stupid in a serious sense. i just like to bait but yeah, i find religious belief pretty illogical, and if youre gonna start believing in magic, youd wanna have a good hard look at it. and i dont think a lot of people do. and uncritical people with religion at their side are dangerous yes, generalisation, but thats just the impression ive gotten during my life.

I would suggest that uncritical people with any belief they hold dear (be it religion or whatever) are dangerous, however, that is not the same as saying religion is dangerous. There is nothing inherently dangerous about religion if not for religion those persons would find something else to justify whatever it is they are doing.

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obviously there are smart & dumb people of all persuasions but id still be willing to have a wager that your average creationist is a bit behind the rest of us sorry if thats a bit prejudiced, but we all have our faults

I think you exhibit a bit of ignorance here. Very few Christians remain creationists today (despite Benedict). Moreover, Christianity is only one religion. If your argument for religious people being less intellegent then non-religious then you can't cherry pick one religion and worse yet one small segment.

You've lost a lot of credibility in my eyes; making general statements is bad enough but making them when you know they are untrue and unsupportable is even worse. If your position is that you believe those who are subscribers to the Abrahamic faiths' creation story are less intellegent then those that do not then that is what you should have stated. By stating an unsupportable position you just make yourself look bad.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I would suggest that uncritical people with any belief they hold dear (be it religion or whatever) are dangerous, however, that is not the same as saying religion is dangerous.

of course. and i wasnt meaning to imply that it was. however there are far more uncritical believers in god than any other belief system youd care to mention. religion has an elegant simplicity all its own that doesnt really test the faculties too much. theres a god, he loves you, obey him and be rewarded, be punished if you dont. thats religion in a nutshell. and since its theses cannot really be challenged, its got a pretty winning formula

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard There is nothing inherently dangerous about religion if not for religion those persons would find something else to justify whatever it is they are doing.

absolutely. the problem with religion however is that its ideas are almost timeless in their rigidity. you have people adhering to a belief system based on archaic ideas and without any capacity to verify the credibility of the authors or the context of their writing. again, religion possesses a unique quality when compared to other belief systems. ive never heard anyone say "oh, this is how it works because thats what marx said in das kapital" but we all hear whats wrong or right because of what *insert possibly ficticious religious figure here* wrote an eon ago.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard I think you exhibit a bit of ignorance here. Very few Christians remain creationists today (despite Benedict). Moreover, Christianity is only one religion. If your argument for religious people being less intellegent then non-religious then you can't cherry pick one religion and worse yet one small segment.

firstly, there is no ignorance here. are there creationists? are they religious? do i think theyre stupid? dont try to put words in my mouth. tsk tsk.

secondly, thats not my argument. merely pointing a particular group out for examination under the "why i might not think highly of religious people microscope". btw there are plenty of sections of the christianity that still preach creationism. mormons & jehocah's witnesses as example. not that it matters, but theyre still about.

off the top of my head, the only scientists i see nowadays that id put in the same category as creationists, are the conspiracy theorists

its also interesting to note that youre obviously washing your hands of creationism here, because i dont see the (intellectual) difference between creationism and faith.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You've lost a lot of credibility in my eyes; making general statements is bad enough but making them when you know they are untrue and unsupportable is even worse.

interesting point you make here.

all religions, in that they all rely on faith, fall into the "unsupportable" category. no evidence. none. so you cant have it both ways. a belief in something that cannot be proven = faith.

at least my argument is based upon experience with religious text or people or opinions or wars (whatever). religious adherents havent experienced god, they cannot prove his existence to themselves or others, they cant even say for certain which particular god is necessarily the real one- how is their "belief" somehow different and superior to my own?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard If your position is that you believe those who are subscribers to the Abrahamic faiths' creation story are less intellegent then those that do not then that is what you should have stated. By stating an unsupportable position you just make yourself look bad.

no, that was never my position. just making fun of an obvious target on religion's side of the fence

to me, a belief in magic without any evidence to support it just doesnt make any sense. so yeah, i still reckon religion appeals to the weak of mind to a greater extent than those a little more capable.

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