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Originally posted by TranceGiant Hm,Yoepus...I do agree that looking at the whole picture Israel is right, it starts with us accpeting the partition plan and ends with Arafat's decision to give up diplomacy (camp david) and get back to the "roots" by using sharon's tempe mount walk for a new mini war against israel [which aimed to 1, weaken our image and as a consequence our weaken our position in future peace talks 2, defeating us psychologically "damn, just let us live and give them everything they want" (well he partly succeeded if u see those "peace now" activists crying for "theend of the occupation")].

It is true, the conflict is black and white. But the last point you made is the most disturbing, since I believe that negotiating with terrorist is not in any countries best interest unless for a last resort (That means if they are going to take you over). See when you talk and agree with people who use violence to achieve their end, it legitimizes violence. Now when this violence is terrorism it goes just to far. You can see what happened when Israel tried to gracefully leave Lebanon and terrorist their viewed it as a success, and now others in the Palestinian world look at this successful attempt which encourages them to terrorize harder and more then ever in an attempt to win political achievements. It is for this exact reason the Oslo accord was signed, I will get more into that latter.

But again, if you give up now and say, ok we will negotiate peace it means you have let the terrorist win.. this means they will not stop and they will continue to use terrorism against you, until you aren’t left (just think if the USA would say ok Mr. Bin Laden you are right, we will move our troops out of Arabia and stop buying your oil.. and funding those evil Israelis. What would you get? Hundreds of more terrorist threats and explosions in every part of the country from the virtually limitless upset people in the world wanting to gain something). This is why you don’t negotiate with kidnappers.. if they get the money they will kidnap again, if you go in their and kill them they will think twice about doing it again.

Ok but enough of me agreeing with you… lets get to the ‘bad’ points you pointed out:

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So talking about the current conflict in general u may use your black and white rhetorics...

That’s how the world views it, the general conflict.

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However going deeper into certain things will show us some grey aspects as well. Israel started the peace process in 1993 in order to eventually build a Palestinian State. Ignoring a point in the Oslo agreement saying that "creating new 'facts/conditions' in the territories" isnt legal (leave aside the Geneva convention) theykept expanding settlements and confiscating lands in orderto build streets etc. etc. This is Bad.

No, I will try and argue that the expansion of settlements is Good (baring that.. at least grey/neutral). First lets not leave Geneva aside, since this is where you hear the common misconceptions that settlements are a War Crime (Geneva being the laws of war…). Well lets look carefully at that what the fourth Geneva convention says about this;
Article 49
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Or in plain English it prohibits the forcible transfer of people of one state to the territory of another state it has occupied as a result of a war. The intention was to insure that the local populations who came under occupations would not be forced to move. This is not relevant to the settlement issue in anyway what so ever. Jews are not being forced to move into the settlements, to the contrary the move their voluntarily, to a place where they, or their ancestors once lived before being expelled by others. Furthermore we can add that the territories never legally belonged to either Jordan or Egypt, and certainly not to the Palestinians who were never the sovereign authority in any part of Palestine. After all the Jewish right of settlement in the area is equivalent in every way to the right of the local population to live there.

The settlements also do not displace Arabs living in the territories. The media sometimes gives the impression that for every Jew who moves to the West Bank, ‘hundreds’ of Palestinians are forced to leave. The truth is that the majority of settlements have been built in uninhabited areas and even the handful that are established in or near Arab towns did not force any Palestinians to leave (of course this has changed slightly at the start of the new conflict, since these Arab towns are perpetuating war on the settlements, and to ensure the safety of the settlers sometimes buildings have had to been destroyed, however usually these buildings are already vacant as the families have fled.

You believe settlements are an obstacle to peace (bad), I believe the contrary.. that they are productive to peace (good), and will shed some light as to why. But first, I will point out that Israel had many times created a halt to the expansion and growth of the settlements most notably after camp David in 1977 (this is when Israel agreed also to remove its settlements from Sinai for peace with Egypt) in the west bank in hopes to encourage similar peace talks with another Arab neighbor. Nothing happened. After Oslo, the Declaration of Principles (which I will add did not mention in any of the provisions a prohibition on the Israeli settlements expansion or founding, nor did the following interim treaty that followed. These are often misinterpreted, the reality is that there is a clause in the accords that prohibits changing the status of the territories, but this was intended to ensure only that neither side would take one sided measures to alter the legal status of the areas... such as annexation or a declaration of statehood. Furthermore Security council resolution 242, which the accords are based on clearly gives Israel a legal right to be in the West Bank and Gaza, the resolution allows Israel to administer the territories it won in 1967, until a just and lasting peace in the middle east is achieved).. their were many imposed freezes on settlement activity in hopes of completing peace talks… just look at a recent example on Barak that did basically all in his power to halt new settlements and expansion. However this was never true, they other side never negotiated peace in show of this good will, instead Arafat encouraged hate and violence in attempts to achieve a political aim. Despite the obvious political advantages there are for an Israeli Prime Minister to support settlements (on the same note, sometimes it is a political disadvantage according to the mood swings of the public) there are more important implications to settlements in the territories.

If you listen to the Palestinian rhetoric you will understand that they truly believe that time is on their side you will see frequent references in Arabic writing to how long it took to expel the crusaders, and the that Zionist might take a similar amount of time to expel. So they believed that time was on their side, however with Israel constructing more and more settlements and ‘stealing’ as you say more and more of ‘their’ land as the years pass it shows an increasing urgency to get to the negotiating table and finally negotiate a complete and all inclusive peace deal. So by constructing settlements you bring the issue of peace more urgently, which means peace should be achieved quicker, which means large numbers lives on both sides of the conflict will be spared due to this and that is good.

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I want u to forget for one moment whats happening now, cause i dont think Israel's politicians knew that back then. Just think logical: You promise to give and at the same time take away bit after bit)

Ok, say this is true.. we better look at the Oslo Accord, what is the gist of it? The gist of it is that the Palestinians recognize Israel (which they should have modified to say as a Jewish entity) in return Israel will establish the Palestinians with an autonomy where they can have self-rule. Both sides recognize the claims each side makes for the territories, and agrees to come to an all binding and final peace agreement between the two entities which resolve these issues. By signing the agreement, both sides agree not to use violence in order to obtain their political objectives, but rather through negotiations, diplomacy, and most importantly mediation.

So all I know is that Arafat failed to crack down and Hamas, confiscate and collect arms from his people (aka as disarming which is very good idea if you are serious about peace), and initiated a terror war under Rabin (which signed the agreement) and Shimon (his predescor) till today, in hopes of achieving political aims via violence.. or in other words breaking the treaty. So say he does that (and he did) can the building and founding of a few settlements, which do not kill, hurt, or terrorize Palestinian compare??? No and what are we doing? We are comparing two sides, I am not saying Israel is Good, I am saying Israel is Good and the Palestinians are Bad. See I am comparing Israel to the Palestinians and deciding. So if Arafat broke the treaty in such horrific and horrible ways, the settlements don’t even compare (noting again that they aren’t even illegal).

Secondly, you conclude that Israel must evacuate all Jewish settlements before a final peace agreement cam be achieved with the Palestinians. This is wrong, since this is where many settlement critics imply that it would be better for peace if the West Bank were Judenrein (empty of Jews). I mean come on, this is like perhaps just a bit anti-Semitic no? After all what would they say if Jews were barred from living in New York, or Paris.. or London. So baring them from living in the West Bank, a place which is the cradle of Jewish civilization is just fine… of course. Any peace settlement should allow Jews to live in the West Bank, just as Arabs are allowed to live in Israel. I mean, what do you expect? The Israeli government to impose rules like the British did under the mandate where they declared certain parts of Palestine off-limits to the Jews?

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Many Hebron settlers are radical and racist, they harass the arab inhabitants, spit at them, demolating their markets, even Shaul Mofaz threatend them once that hed evacuate them (note: i do not justify the murder of any of them at all,i just say that THIS is bad)

Fair enough, but I do not think they would be so racist or radical if it were not for what the Arabs had done to them there… but regardless we are comparing, and if you look what the Palestinians do to Jews in the territories this almost makes them look (Good). What do Palestinians do to Jews? Well they simply kill them because they are Jews. Then they will go name call you at your dead body as they drag it threw the streets, while the crowd goes bigger and mutilates your body (bad). And another thing these Hebron radicals fall into Israel’s less then 1% which every free country (read wacko’s) has because they are allowed to have free will. And again, they seem to be very keen on their use with freedom of expression when it comes to Palestinians which is a cornerstone of any democracy (this is good). Again, compare the less then 1% Palestinian wackos, considering they aren’t already dead (I mean your suicide bombers don’t even fall into this margin) and the Hebron settlers look REALLY good. Furthermore if a Palestinian were to say “I think the Israelis are very cool, peace loving people, and we should allow them to rule us, since it would be better for us, instead of this stupid Arafat” you’d see his body being dragged out next to the settler. No freedom of speech… bad.

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Pregnant Palestinian Women or ill Palestinians nowadays die since they aint allowed passing check points.

Well you are getting into another thing here the checkpoints. First we will not that they’re would have not been any checkpoints as such Arafat would have rounded up the terrorists and done his fair share. Secondly, these women usually need to pass the checkpoints into Israeli hospitals where they receive free health care. Although it would be humanitarian and good natured of Israel to allow them access to these facilities (and they still do.. just takes longer to get their), not doing such is not necessarily bad. After all just because I don’t give money do charity doesn’t make me bad, right? (I hope..).. Just because I avoid taxes….. oh nevermind. Perhaps the Palestinians should use the money they receive from the many humanitarian organization around the world on their own hospitals for once instead of the illegal arms, so their people wouldn’t have to suffer through the lines. Secondly the Palestinian Ambulances are not your regular ambulances either.. they have been connected to countless acts of terrorism, weapons and people, smuggling and such. It is only now that the Israelis have caught on to this that these delays are getting longer as can be expected when you do such a gross violation of the Geneva convention (Using non-combatant ambulances for terrorism).

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Israeli soldiers sometimes provoke Arabs by slowlyletting them pass,shouting at them etc. This is bad.

No it’s not bad, the soldiers are expressing their freedom of speech (good). No, ok it is not the best thing either.. once again I allude though to how Palestinian treat Israelis in their territories, or how they treat Israeli soldiers..(since we are comparing) of course if the Palestinians took out 10 Israeli soldiers the other day the soldiers might be up nerved… more vocal and more harassing and suspicious of the Palestinians. A good way to cure this, stop blowing up and killing the soldiers, they seem to hate you less when you do so (go figure…).

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Israeli Arabs and Beduins and drusim are discriminated against when it comes to certain parts of social life(labor, purchasing of lands etc. etc.) This is Bad.

Although the fact of this is true and bad, this is civil matter in Israel. It is illegal to discriminate against anyone in Israel by race, sex, age… etc…etc.. This is the LAW, you are found to violate it YOU WILL be sentenced, fined, and punished. (good) Every country in the world suffers from discrimination, the USA surely… Even Sweden, Norway, France, and other very developed nations do. So to take this and say this is bad, although it is true, it is like saying every person is imperfect… duhh. The reality is also that the Arabs in Israel are some of the best off Arabs (average) then any other Arabs in many other Arab nations. They have nice wages, they work and vote in a free society where they still voice and vote their preferences in politics. There are Arab representatives in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament), they are provided with free education, health care, and live longer and more educated then most other Arabs in other parts of the Middle East (good). Furthermore if we compare how Israelis are treaty in the Palestinian territories.. well remember that settlers body above? They have very low tolerance, no law, and will kill you on the spot on basis of race (bad).

But i think that the Palestinians must have their own state but with different, liberal leaders..and only after erasing the entire terror infrastructure and stopping the anti-semitic propaganda.

Although, I never still understand what their problem was living under Israel, I would not award them with a state but with an Autonomy which is able to self-rule its citizens, is demilitarized, and able to enter into foreign agreements with other nations that are not military pacts or alliance, so only economic. I don’t understand why this isn’t good enough for them either. This is as much as any Jew could have asked for or wanted 100 years or so back in Europe I am sure.

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By the way...i dont think theres a real palestinian people either. However I see that theres this group of people, sharing the same destiny, having suffered after all (like us of course), sometimes being driven away, sometimed having left on their own, not being accpeted byany country....so believing that the average Palestinian just wants a free calm peaceful life without worries, a nice job a hot wife Id like to see 2 states and one peace.

Truly I can never see 2 states so small living side by side together initially. But I agree the Palestinians are humans and with in a few generations should understand that a nice job and a hot wife is that live is all about.. not rock throwing at a tank. Of course they could have enjoyed this already if Israel would have annexed them 10 years after the 67 war.

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right now this is utopia...most of theppl are pumpedup with hatred and propganda (this is bad by the way!) so we'll have to wait at least until Yasser's death ..hm okay

An’t that the sad truth.. Israel is living next door to the loudest neighbors you have ever seen, and refuse to make peace. Military occupation followed either by annexation or autonomy looks like the only thing now. But we can only wait and see.

Yoepus
Beer: helping ugly people get laid since 4000BC.

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Originally posted by Arya I agree. I wish they could set aside their differences and do whats best for their people.

We all do, unforteantly one side can set aside their differences (Israel) and the other can not (Palestinians).

Just look at the recent Zinni mission.
We are talking about the two sides, just meeting with each other and talking. Lets take a look at their recent discussions via Zinni to find out what each side is doing in preperations to meet and talk with one another:

Israel: Ok, we give up on that 7 days of quiet thing. We understand it is to much to ask for you to just give is simple week of peace... I mean for god's sake Hanucah isn't that long, but yes we understand that you are bloodthristy and would like to kill us, were still willing to talk to you and try and find some solutions. Will you talk with us now?
Palestinians: No, of course we will kill you while we talk, but get out of Ramallah first before we can talk.
Israel: Ok, we got out of Ramallah, will you talk with us now?
Palestinians: No, you didn't move far enough.. get your tanks umm away farther.
Israel: Ok, we moved out tanks 'umm away farther', Will you talk with us now?
Palestinians: No, now you have to move out of all the Occupied Territories, even though we understand we both have legitimate claims to these territories.
Israel: No! Are you crazy?? You want us to move out and you won't even promise us quiet?
Palestinians: Hmm I see your point, Ok move your tanks out of Betlehem then.
Israel: Will you stop snipers shooting at Gilo if we do?
Palestinians: No.
Israel: I don't think we want to do it then.. Can't we just talk?
Palestinians: No, move your tanks out of Betlehem.
Israel: I see what your trying to do! Your trying to get us to leave all of the territories one city at a time.
Palestinians: Ummm no, no were not.. honest.. honest to Allah.
Israel: Really?
Palestinians: No.

And they STILL haven't even started talking. If the Palestinians want to talk while killing Israelis, they should not expect the Israelis to stop enforcing their own security. Geess..

Yoepus
Surrender your Beer, or we'll take it by force.

Are you a typoholic or something. Great post, but most peeps wont read those long posts.

___________________
..:: Walking The Eternal Path Of Euphoria ::..

At the rate this stupidity is going, the only time peace will prevail is when both sides are dead... Yes... All DEAD! I've lost count of how many times they had the so-called "Peace talks and agreements" that failed everytime. And the irony of it all.. the whole Middle East is a total cluster[beep], drench in so much blood in a holy land..

Excuse the melodrama, if you can see an ultimatum given, they'll smarten up real quick..

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Originally posted by Yoepus [B]You have a superiorly moral nation vs. a barbaric one

THAT MORAL SUPERIORITY STUFF IS WHAT THE NAZIS THOUGHT, AND WHAT THE JAPS THOUGHT WHEN THEY KILLED CHINESE, AND WHAT THE SPANISH CONQUERORS THOUGHT WHEN THEY SLAUGHTERED THE NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS. WHAT THEY DONT SEE IS THAT THEY WERE SO BLIND BELIEVING THAT SUPERIORITY STUFF THAT THEY DIDNT REALIZE THEY WERE ALSO BARBARIANS.

Last edited by zzleeper on Mar-18-2002 at 06:47

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Originally posted by DJ-Kreing^^ And what are thoes kids doing there in the first place???? shouldnt they be at school or playing at home or whatever Dont they understand that they might get killed? i dont get it.... [/B]

They live in a different reality, a reality so hard (and different from yours and mine) that they are lead to such desperate actions.

AIM of this post: To question the real effect the Israel incursions have had.

Two random news sources:
MSNBC
Chicago Tribune

The palestinian side (from UK`s Observer)

TheStar
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by zzleeper
[B]AIM of this post: To question the real effect the Israel incursions have had.

I'm glad you don't think infilitrating terrorist training grounds, arresting fellow scores of militia men, confinscating huge number of weapons, recieving vast ammount of intelligene regarding terrorist activities, and forcing the terrorist to plan ahead on where they will run next instead of where they will blow themselves up next is a success.

How foolish of me to ever think it might in some odd way be a suceess. Also as you can see it has already had its diplomatic value. Did you read the post above? God can only imagine what the Palestinians would have declared the Israelis do if they had already left the territories.

So perhaps they did not catch the terrorist leaders, however they are now on the run, with current incursions and disablement of their operations (as Arafat should have done) this will weakon considerably their effect and resolve on terrorism.

Any attempt to try and stop terrorism is an honorable one no matter if it succeeds of fails regardless. With talks proving themselves insufficient to resolve terrorism, and with Arafat's promotion of it, Israelis have little choice but to take matters into their own hand.

Yoepus

I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.

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Originally posted by zzleeper THAT MORAL SUPERIORITY STUFF IS WHAT THE NAZIS THOUGHT, AND WHAT THE JAPS THOUGHT WHEN THEY KILLED CHINESE, AND WHAT THE SPANISH CONQUERORS THOUGHT WHEN THEY SLAUGHTERED THE NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS. WHAT THEY DONT SEE IS THAT THEY WERE SO BLIND BELIEVING THAT SUPERIORITY STUFF THAT THEY DIDNT REALIZE THEY WERE ALSO BARBARIANS.

Wow! You probably worked on that post for hours. Your family's program of selective inbreeding appears to have resulted in success.

I guess you really went out of your way to reach such a ridiciolous conclusion! Moral superiority exsits, America is moraly superior to the Taliban and Al Quedia! America also actually thought they were morally superior to the Nazis (OH HOW EVIL THEY MUST BE BARBARIANS now those Americans!!).

You know why, the Israelis are morally superior to the Palestinians? Because I have indictated DOZENs of reaons why above in a LOGICAL RATIONAL argument, you on the other hand have used a stupid EMOTIONAL appeal based on just uther nonsense. Please think before you post.

Thank you,
Yoepus
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits

Last edited by Yoepus on Mar-18-2002 at 15:20

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Originally posted by zzleeper They live in a different reality, a reality so hard (and different from yours and mine) that they are lead to such desperate actions.

You are very correct, they lived in an abused childhood as I said.. however the abuse is primarly forced upon them down their throat by their own leader who they follow unquestionedly (and they better or they get killed).

You are so right, the are 'lead' to such desperate actions, their mothers but a stone in their hands, kick them off onto the street and say.. go kill a soldier and don't come back till you do. (see emotional appeal just like yours, no logic behind it...)

Yoepus
I'm glad to see you - I didn't even know the circus was in town.

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Originally posted by u4ea:[soulstar] At the rate this stupidity is going, the only time peace will prevail is when both sides are dead... Yes... All DEAD! I've lost count of how many times they had the so-called "Peace talks and agreements" that failed everytime. And the irony of it all.. the whole Middle East is a total cluster[beep], drench in so much blood in a holy land.. Excuse the melodrama, if you can see an ultimatum given, they'll smarten up real quick..

Dud! Where have you been??? They already tried your suggestions like a couple of times, 1948, 1967, 1973... And those ultimatum things never work either they tried those a ton too (1993, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001...)

Guess will have to try something else.

Yoepus
What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.