Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Main Forums > Music Discussion > A serious discussion about sampling-
Pages (8): « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
fritz perls
Guest



Registered: Not Yet
Location:

"Good artists copy, great artists steal."

Old Post Oct-17-2006 21:42 
Add  to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
SMC
custom title addict



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by RJT
Just like Plato's defintion of "knowledge," the ability to prove the creation of an IP, or rather, the debate regarding whether or not this is even possible to prove, will more than likely be a mystery that I'll puzzle over forever.

My gut feeling says that in the strictest sense, it's impossible - Though this raises all sorts of question about the idea of proving "innovation" or "pioneering" something new. I think we can arguably point to people who have clearly done "new" things in our eyes, how do we prove that they were beyond a shadow of a doubt the first to do so?

Gah - So many questions leading to so few answers!


"But the distinction between creation and discovery is not clearcut or rigorous. Nor is it clear why such a distinction, even if clear, is ethically relevant in defining property rights. No one creates matter; they just manipulate and grapple with it according to physical laws. In this sense, no one really creates anything. They merely rearrange matter into new arrangements and patterns. An engineer who invents a new mousetrap has rearranged existing parts to provide a function not previously performed. Others who learn of this new arrangement can now also make an improved mousetrap. Yet the mousetrap merely follows laws of nature. The inventor did not invent the matter out of which the mousetrap is made, nor the facts and laws exploited to make it work. Similarly, Einstein’s “discovery” of the relation E=mc2, once known by others, allows them to manipulate matter in a more efficient way. Without Einstein’s, or the inventor’s, efforts, others would have been ignorant of certain causal laws, of ways matter can be manipulated and utilized. Both the inventor and the theoretical scientist engage in creative mental effort to produce useful, new ideas. Yet one is rewarded, and the other is not. In one recent case, the inventor of a new way to calculate a number representing the shortest path between two points—an extremely useful technique—was not given patent protection because this was “merely” a mathematical algorithm. But it is arbitrary and unfair to reward more practical inventors and entertainment providers, such as the engineer and songwriter, and to leave more theoretical science and math researchers and philosophers unrewarded. The distinction is inherently vague, arbitrary, and unjust."

from Stephan Kinsella's "Against Intellectual Property"
http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf

Last edited by SMC on Oct-17-2006 at 22:23

Old Post Oct-17-2006 21:43 
Click Here to See the Profile for SMC Click here to Send SMC a Private Message Add SMC to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
RJT
last minute disco



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by SMC
from Stephan Kinsella's "Against Intellectual Property"
http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf


Excellent post, thank you for the link, settlin' in for a good read


___________________
last minute disco dot net

Old Post Oct-17-2006 21:46 
Click Here to See the Profile for RJT Click here to Send RJT a Private Message Visit RJT's homepage! Add RJT to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
SMC
custom title addict



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by Allied Nations
Is digital information tangible?

What if a work sampling another work is heralded by the public audience, and completely hated by the owner of the copyright - take Danger Mouse - Grey Album for example- this ia very imprtant work which deals with copyright and sampling issues. Many will agree this is a legitimate work of art, yet the label who owned the a lot of the material (I think it was the beatles stuff and it may have been capitol, i forget) wouldn't fought against it's release- How is this copyright benifiting artists?

He used almost exlusively JayZ and Beatles material to put together the grey album (maybe completely exclusive), yet still made something arguable artistic and exciting-


Digital information is not tangible and it's not scarce. A piece of digital information is a sequence of numbers, which are a concept, or an idea. There is no need for establishing any propery rights around things which are not scarce and over which there can not be any real conflict. You, me and another infinite number of ppl can all simoultaneosly use a specific sequence of numbers, think it or write down without a conflict emerging over it's use. Can the same thing be said about one specific banana? No. That's the difference between scarce and not scarce resources.

So, i have no objection to Danger Mouse creating and selling the work in question. : ]

Old Post Oct-17-2006 21:53 
Click Here to See the Profile for SMC Click here to Send SMC a Private Message Add SMC to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Allied Nations
Make it happen cap'n



Registered: Mar 2004
Location: MTHELL

quote:
Originally posted by SMC
Digital information is not tangible and it's not scarce. A piece of digital information is a sequence of numbers, which are a concept, or an idea. There is no need for establishing any propery rights around things which are not scarce and over which there can not be any real conflict. You, me and another infinite number of ppl can all simoultaneosly use a specific sequence of numbers, think it or write down without a conflict emerging over it's use. Can the same thing be said about one specific banana? No. That's the difference between scarce and not scarce resources.

So, i have no objection to Danger Mouse creating and selling the work in question. : ]



Ok, so if he did it purely using analog equipment you might have a problem with him doing it? These are exactly the sort of response I want to hear.


___________________
Fortuna Favet Fortibus.

Old Post Oct-17-2006 21:55 
Click Here to See the Profile for Allied Nations Click here to Send Allied Nations a Private Message Add Allied Nations to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
RJT
last minute disco



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Allied Nations
Ok, so if he did it purely using analog equipment you might have a problem with him doing it? These are exactly the sort of response I want to hear.


I don't think it has to do with the process, but with the material. This is where the argument gets muddy because many "scarce" resources such as vinyl or any other "analog" source material can easily become digital. Does that change the material (or idea) itself in any way fundamentally?


___________________
last minute disco dot net

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:04 
Click Here to See the Profile for RJT Click here to Send RJT a Private Message Visit RJT's homepage! Add RJT to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
SMC
custom title addict



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by Allied Nations
Ok, so if he did it purely using analog equipment you might have a problem with him doing it? These are exactly the sort of response I want to hear.


No, not at all. I just used digital information or numbers as an example since you asked me if digital information is tangible. An analog signal is a sequence of electrical impulses, it is just like a sequence of numbers or of letters, words, spoken or written, not scarce.

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:07 
Click Here to See the Profile for SMC Click here to Send SMC a Private Message Add SMC to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
ASFSE
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2005
Location: the bay

quote:
Originally posted by fritz perls
"Good artists copy, great artists steal."


+1

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:14  United States
Click Here to See the Profile for ASFSE Click here to Send ASFSE a Private Message Add ASFSE to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
SMC
custom title addict



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Sweden

quote:
Originally posted by RJT
I don't think it has to do with the process, but with the material. This is where the argument gets muddy because many "scarce" resources such as vinyl or any other "analog" source material can easily become digital. Does that change the material (or idea) itself in any way fundamentally?


Analog or digital are charachteristics of the information itself, not of the material source. I can write down digital information on a piece of paper. I own the paper and the pen with which i write it. The same goes for the vinyl or the dvd, what is owned is the material resource. So the characteristics of the information are of no importance. An analog signal or sequence should be treated the same way as a digital. The reason why there is a sort of illusion that digital information in some way radically differs from analog information, is that digital information and the technology that sorrounds it have exposed the problem we're debating in a way that analog technology didn't/couldn't.

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:16 
Click Here to See the Profile for SMC Click here to Send SMC a Private Message Add SMC to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
RJT
last minute disco



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by SMC
Analog or digital are charachteristics of the information itself, not of the material source. I can write down digital information on a piece of paper. I own the paper and the pen with which i write it. The same goes for the vinyl or the dvd, what is owned is the material resource. So the characteristics of the information are of no importance. An analog signal or sequence should be treated the same way as a digital. The reason why there is a sort of illusion that digital information in some way radically differs from analog information, is that digital information and the technology that sorrounds it have exposed the problem we're debating in a way that analog technology didn't/couldn't.


Exactly. I only posed the question to see if anyone could argue for the opposite in any way I wasn't seeing.


___________________
last minute disco dot net

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:22 
Click Here to See the Profile for RJT Click here to Send RJT a Private Message Visit RJT's homepage! Add RJT to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Allied Nations
Make it happen cap'n



Registered: Mar 2004
Location: MTHELL

quote:
Originally posted by SMC
Analog or digital are charachteristics of the information itself, not of the material source. I can write down digital information on a piece of paper. I own the paper and the pen with which i write it. The same goes for the vinyl or the dvd, what is owned is the material resource. So the characteristics of the information are of no importance. An analog signal or sequence should be treated the same way as a digital. The reason why there is a sort of illusion that digital information in some way radically differs from analog information, is that digital information and the technology that sorrounds it have exposed the problem we're debating in a way that analog technology didn't/couldn't.


Mmm- very tasty response...


___________________
Fortuna Favet Fortibus.

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:37 
Click Here to See the Profile for Allied Nations Click here to Send Allied Nations a Private Message Add Allied Nations to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester

quote:
Originally posted by RJT
I think a strong argument for sampling would quite simply be the Beastie Boys album "Paul's Boutique."


And an end to this debate is the DJ Shadow album "Entroducing".


___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Old Post Oct-17-2006 22:45  England
Click Here to See the Profile for SYSTEM-J Click here to Send SYSTEM-J a Private Message Visit SYSTEM-J's homepage! Add SYSTEM-J to your buddy list SYSTEM-J is online now Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Main Forums > Music Discussion > A serious discussion about sampling-
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (8): « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackGood progressive track, define it!!! [2003] [1]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackMarco V - Red Blue Purple [2006]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:32.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!