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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how so? what would you call parting the red sea, making the nile run with blood, turning water to wine, being a talking burning bush etc? if god isnt actually magical, how is he any different from the rest of us? in fact, id be more than disappointed if god wasnt a mage to be honest. but i guess thats my fantasy bias coming out of me. but seriously, i do equate god with "magic" (whatever that means).

Magic is an illusionary art. The difference between a magician and god (as his actions are described) is that a magician uses trickery and deceit to make one believe he has done something seemingly impossible whereas god controls nature and/or existance itself to make things happen.

With regard to the red sea for instance (FYI Red Sea is an error in interpretation from Aramaic to Greek, the name given actually says reed sea, meaning a marshy body of water common to the nile delta area, the name of the town outside of which the Hebrews camped refers to an anchient village in the nile delta which has recently been located).... tidal shifts in the nile delta area drastically lower the water level of the areas lakes. It would be quite possible to cross a sandbar or other raised area of one of these lake beds during a large tidal shift. The timing of the Hebrew exodous has been pegged by both the bible and Egyption records to have happened several days after when archeologists believe the island of Santorini (Greece) exploded. Such an explosion would have caused massive tidal shifts lasting for days, sufficient to cause waterlevels in the Nile delta to decrease tremendously (oddly enough, gases from such an explosion could also make water appear red and murky... perhaps like blood). Now, the question becomes; was this a freak occurance and Moses just had scary good timing or was the explosion of Santornini an act of god meant to allow the 7 pleagues and the Exodus to occur? That is a question of faith.

My point is characterising what believers see as miracals as being nothing more then simple magic equates the power and majesty of god with that of David Copperfield. While you may see the biblical acts of god as simply illusions by people passing themselves off a prophets believers do not. Your continued use of the word magic is an insult to the beliefs of over 2 billion people, thus, either you don't understand the difference between magic and miracals or you are intentionally seeking to insult people, both show one form of ignorance or another.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN he's actually just an arseclown with lots of fancy words.

Tis true. My pedigree is no match for the lvl 20 chaotic-evil mage who hails from Australia ... excelsior!

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN he's actually just an arseclown with lots of fancy words.

Once again, I'm entertained just by watching your 1 line statements.

The one about french cats was hysterical.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Magic is an illusionary art. The difference between a magician and god (as his actions are described) is that a magician uses trickery and deceit to make one believe he has done something seemingly impossible whereas god controls nature and/or existance itself to make things happen.

uh uh. im talking about real magic. you know, like the dude in my avatar. he didnt defeat the gods of krynn with illusions and trickery let me tell you!

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard My point is characterising what believers see as miracals as being nothing more then simple magic equates the power and majesty of god with that of David Copperfield. While you may see the biblical acts of god as simply illusions by people passing themselves off a prophets believers do not. Your continued use of the word magic is an insult to the beliefs of over 2 billion people, thus, either you don't understand the difference between magic and miracals or you are intentionally seeking to insult people, both show one form of ignorance or another.

honestly mate, i couldnt care whether my comments are an insult to believers or not. you dont see me crying everytime someone says star trek is better than star wars do you? again, i mean real magic: the ability to perform acts that defy explanation at will, by manipulating the forces of nature (or beyond). dont take your narrow view of magic out on me. the entire existance of god relies on some form of "magic" unless of course you believe god is just a natural part of the universe like anything else we can explain with science. and i dont think the universe created god. if you want to distinguish between magic and miracles go right ahead, but the simple fact is some power (and im gonna call it magic) makes those miracles happen.

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Originally posted by occrider Tis true. My pedigree is no match for the lvl 20 chaotic-evil mage who hails from Australia ... excelsior!

hahaha. dont anger the mage or i shall use my powers to give george another 4 years

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard The timing of the Hebrew exodous has been pegged by both the bible and Egyption records to have happened several days after when archeologists believe the island of Santorini (Greece) exploded. Such an explosion would have caused massive tidal shifts lasting for days, sufficient to cause waterlevels in the Nile delta to decrease tremendously (oddly enough, gases from such an explosion could also make water appear red and murky... perhaps like blood). Now, the question becomes; was this a freak occurance and Moses just had scary good timing or was the explosion of Santornini an act of god meant to allow the 7 pleagues and the Exodus to occur? That is a question of faith.

No it isn't: it's still a question of science.

Archaeological research tells us that there were never any Jewish slaves in Egypt, much less 600,000 Jews walking around in the deserts of the Sinai Peninsula for 40 years (it's strange that we should find the remains of campsites of small, nomadic tribes from that time but no evidence at all of such a large body of Jewish people?). "Israel" doesn't appear at all in the Egyptian records until about 1200 BC (about 200 years before David, about 2 millenia after Moses) let alone in the capacity of an enslaved nation. Put simply, the exodus didn't happen: it's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of reality. All of these rationalisations are secondary.

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The difference between a magician and god (as his actions are described) is that a magician uses trickery and deceit to make one believe he has done something seemingly impossible whereas god controls nature and/or existance itself to make things happen. [...] Your continued use of the word magic is an insult to the beliefs of over 2 billion people, thus, either you don't understand the difference between magic and miracals or you are intentionally seeking to insult people, both show one form of ignorance or another.

There is no practical difference: the magician appears to contort the laws of nature upon a whim and so does god of the Bible. The only difference is that magicians actually exist.

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Originally posted by Renegade Archaeological research tells us that there were never any Jewish slaves in Egypt, much less 600,000 Jews walking around in the deserts of the Sinai Peninsula for 40 years (it's strange that we should find the remains of campsites of small, nomadic tribes from that time but no evidence at all of such a large body of Jewish people?). "Israel" doesn't appear at all in the Egyptian records until about 1200 BC (about 200 years before David, about 2 millenia after Moses) let alone in the capacity of an enslaved nation. Put simply, the exodus didn't happen: it's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of reality. All of these rationalisations are secondary.

Incorrect my friend. First, you're looking at the wrong time (common mistake), Exodous occured in the time of Ramses II which would be about 1300bc, this is confirmed by events referenced in the book that have been confirmed to have happened and archaeologically dated to that period.

It's kind of a given that Israel would not appear in Egyption records at the time of the exodus given that they did not take that name for their nation until after the exodus. At the time of the exodus they would have been under the name Hebrew. Interestingly there is record of a small insignificant slave revolt during the reign of Ramses which coincidentally happened shortly after the death of his son (hmmm... pleague anyone).

600,000 is probably a great exageration in number.... oral tradition tends to do that, I doubt anyone would argue this was an accurate count.

40 years, no evidence. First I should point out that the Hebrew year when the old testament was written was 40 days.... therefore the 40 years is actually 4 years and about 4 months. It's not as if they were lost for an entire generation. Additionally, it should be noted that the assumed route most archaeologists have been looking on is incorrect as it is around the Sinai peninsula whereas the geographical references in the Exodus suggest they went across. Interestingly many anchient alters have been found on old paths across the peninsula.

Sorry my friend but the pop-history trend to try and discredit the story simply doesn't work with the exception of the bible pegging the year wrong.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Incorrect my friend. First, you're looking at the wrong time (common mistake), Exodous occured in the time of Ramses II which would be about 1300bc, this is confirmed by events referenced in the book that have been confirmed to have happened and archaeologically dated to that period.

Well thanks for the tip "my friend". That's my curiosity satisfied.

Just for posterity, though:

- What events are referenced in the book of Exodus that would date it to the time of Ramses II?
- Where is the archaeological evidence for these events?
- What events in the book are archaeologically "confirmed" to have happened at all?

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It's kind of a given that Israel would not appear in Egyption records at the time of the exodus given that they did not take that name for their nation until after the exodus. At the time of the exodus they would have been under the name Hebrew.

There's no mention of Hebrews in the Egyptian record before then, either. There is no mention of the Hebrews (or the Jews, or the Israelites) before 1200 BC because they simply didn't exist. Judaism case into existence when Judea (the south of what is currently Israel) was populated by nomadic tribes and displaced Canaanites. The tradition of Judaism (which was originally henothestic and remained so until the reign of Josiah) didn't originate outside of Judea and was almost certainly a very marginal, provincial belief system right up until the time of David (1000 BC). This is what the archaeological record tells us: I'm not sure there's any way for you to argue your way out of this.

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Interestingly there is record of a small insignificant slave revolt during the reign of Ramses which coincidentally happened shortly after the death of his son (hmmm... pleague anyone).

Source please.

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600,000 is probably a great exageration in number.... oral tradition tends to do that, I doubt anyone would argue this was an accurate count. 40 years, no evidence. First I should point out that the Hebrew year when the old testament was written was 40 days.... therefore the 40 years is actually 4 years and about 4 months. It's not as if they were lost for an entire generation.

Yep, let's presume we're looking at 1% of the people (6,000) over the course of 11% of the time (4 years and 4 months - I'd like to see your source for this definition of a year, btw). There is archaeological evidence for nomadic tribes, in that region, of far smaller numbers and over far shorter periods of time. We have evidence of campfires, from that region that likely existed for only a single night: where is the evidence for such a large migration (an entire race, no less) of people? Where is the pottery? Where are the reminants of the temporary shelters they must have erected? Where are all the dead animals (and people)? Why do you suppose there is literally no archaeological evidence for the ancient Jews in the Sinai Peninsula at all?

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Additionally, it should be noted that the assumed route most archaeologists have been looking on is incorrect as it is around the Sinai peninsula whereas the geographical references in the Exodus suggest they went across. Interestingly many anchient alters have been found on old paths across the peninsula.

Er, what? If they didn't walk through the Sinai Peninsula, where did they walk? Consult an atlas if you're confused by this question. Secondly, please give me a source for these "ancient alters" the archaeologists have supposedly found.

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Sorry my friend but the pop-history trend to try and discredit the story simply doesn't work with the exception of the bible pegging the year wrong.

Haha, right. Find me one reputable archaeological source (i.e. one that isn't Christian or Jewish) that confirms the Exodus - one - and I'll relent.

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