quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC I agree some of those statements about carter I posted are half truths but they point to a lousy presidential term. Alot of things happened in his term and it was his responsibility. Cut defense spending to the extremes he did is insane. You argue there was no need for the B-1? Are you serious? Do you know how much we still use it today? During his four years he was short-sighted to see it's value in the future. Very bad idea and reinforces the notion he was weak on national defense. Then he went to N.Korea and came back saying 'He's an ok guy' to clinton... They decide to give aid and crap to stop making nukes... Then years later throws in our face that they had kept on going and finished nukes and thanked us for the aid... Thanks guys! Truly outstanding... Anyway, carter is an imbecile. Even a longtime aid has resigned from his organization accusing Carter of plagiarism and errors in his new book. There's others even a man who said carter stole his map of the middle east he made. These men will point out error after error soon so stay tuned... =========== Israel and Palestine... I don't support violence and suicide bombings, plus purposely targeting civilians, especially women and children. The palestinians could learn a thing or two from Gandhi and peaceful resistance. They'd have more worldwide support if they weren't so militant. And then SHOCK! Israel retaliates to defend their people and the militants sit back and say 'look they're attacking us and we didn't do anything...' Peaceful resistance is the way to go... But they are also being used as pawns by iran... Iran pays for extremists to stir up crap. Do you know most Muslims think of palestinians as 2nd rate? They don't really care much about them, never did, the hardliners are using them to stoke hatred and violence onto Israel. Why do you think moderate Muslim nations don't fully support Hamas's government or even hezbollah during the war they started with Israel? They aren't happy about syrian and iranian support, arms, and training plus supplying their own troops to keep the peace plans stalled. The militants drop a mortar on a house then cry foul when IDF comes... Oh and they wonder why they have no jobs or investment in their nation... Before Arafat started this 2nd intifada they had a bright future, a state guaranteed, tons of investment and aid from the world. Then he decided to turn to violence for more concessions from the peace process and look at how they live now, poor and jobless... Peaceful resistance is the way, not violence. There's plenty of official timelines showing, suicide bombing after bombing right after arafat walked out of the peace summit. Only after dozens of jews were killed did Israel finally retaliate. But people will dismiss that and say the bombings were in retaliation for something Israel did, but find me proof Israel started the killing first and you get a cookie (2nd Intifada)...

For your information... palestinians were not blowing themselves up after the occuption started in 1967. They waited 27 patient years as they got slaughtered by israel until the first suicide bombings began.

And you are claiming the the world would have cared??? Why didnt they care during those 27 years of occupation???

As sad as it is.. the world now knows the plight of the palestinians becuase tehy are showing their anger and hatred through unfortunate means.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

B'TSELEM, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, has published its 2006 annual statistics. In a press release, the human rights group, which was established in 1989 to document human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, said this past year has witnessed "a deterioration in the human rights situation in the Occupied Territories, particularly in the increase in civilians killed and the destruction of houses and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip." At the same time, it added, "there was an improvement regarding violations of the right to life of Israeli civilians." Casualties --------------- (Figures in parenthesis indicate the total figure since the beginning of the intifada) According to B'Tselem's research, from January to December 27, 2006, Israeli security forces killed 660 (4005) Palestinians in the West Bank and in Israel . This includes 141 (811) minors. At least 322 (1920) of those killed did not take part in the hostilities at the time they were killed. Another 22 (210) were targets of assassinations. In the Gaza Strip alone, since the capture of Cpl. Gilad Shalit, Israeli forces killed 405 Palestinians, including 88 minors. Of these, 205 did not participate in the fighting when killed. Palestinians killed 17 (701) Israeli civilians in 2006, both in the West Bank and inside Israel . This includes 1 (119) minor. In addition, Palestinians killed 6 (316) members of the Israeli security forces. House Demolitions --------------------------- Israel demolished 292 houses military operations in the Occupied Territories , 279 of them in the Gaza Strip. These were home to 1,769 people. Some 80 of these demolitions were conducted after the home-owners received advance warning to the demolition. In addition, Israel demolished 42 homes in East Jerusalem that were built without a permit. These were home to about 80 people. Checkpoints and restrictions on movement -------------------------------------------------------------- Deep within the West Bank, Israel currently maintains 54 permanent checkpoints, staffed most of the time. 12 other checkpoints are within the city of Hebron . In addition, according to UN OCHA, there are on average some 160 flying checkpoints throughout the West Bank every week. In addition to the checkpoints, the Israeli military has erected hundreds of physical obstacles such as concrete blocks, dirt piles and trenches to restrict access to Palestinian communities. Palestinians have restricted access to some 41 roadways in the West Bank . Israelis have unlimited access to these roadways. Prisoners and Detainees ----------------------------------- As of November, Israel held 9,075 Palestinians in custody, including 345 minors. Of these, 738 (22 minors) were held in administrative detention, without trial and without knowing the charges against them.

Source: UK Indymedia, For the full statistics of B'Tselem, see http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King For your information... palestinians were not blowing themselves up after the occuption started in 1967. They waited 27 patient years as they got slaughtered by israel until the first suicide bombings began. And you are claiming the the world would have cared??? Why didnt they care during those 27 years of occupation??? As sad as it is.. the world now knows the plight of the palestinians becuase tehy are showing their anger and hatred through unfortunate means.

27 years patiently waited?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...d_its_aftermath

I was reading about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs
invaded Israel right after it got independance. There's lots
of examples in the wiki articles where Arabs since the 1930s
were murdering Jews in Palestine just because of their religion.
Attacking their communities and towns. The British forces who
administered the territory after the Ottoman Empire was defeated
did little to help the Jewish civilians. After further reading
it's interesting the British's treatment of Jews during the 30s
and 40s. Not very flattering. But what else is new, Jews have
been persecuted for thousands of years.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Lay off the sledging already. This threads pretty much due to have a fork stuck in it anyway. If you want to look at peaceful political reform after generations of racial violence for a solution you'd do worse to look up the history of the ANC. The ANC where for many years literally a terrorist organisation that eventually decided to put away their guns, stop blowing people up, fighting amongst themselves and take that brave step onto the moral high ground which eventually led to peaceful social and democratic change with popular support. The PLO and its other sub-departments could do well to either take that step or take a step in the direction of economic opposition, they do that, drop the fighting and I'll quite happily side with them. Until then, I've got no bias one way or another with Palestine or Israel, theyre both equally as bloody terrible as one another for lots of different reasons and thats it.

I'm not saying I agree with violent resistance... but do you honestly think that the SA apartheid regime would have sat down with Mandela had there been absolutely no violence in previous years from the ANC... or if they hadn't suffered a beating at the hands of the Cubans in Angola, which caused Namibia to gain it's independence and install an anti-apartheid regime?

Like it or not, sometimes violence is the most powerful force for social change that there is.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC 27 years patiently waited? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_A...d_its_aftermath I was reading about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs invaded Israel right after it got independance. There's lots of examples in the wiki articles where Arabs since the 1930s were murdering Jews in Palestine just because of their religion. Attacking their communities and towns. The British forces who administered the territory after the Ottoman Empire was defeated did little to help the Jewish civilians. After further reading it's interesting the British's treatment of Jews during the 30s and 40s. Not very flattering. But what else is new, Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years.

Are you talking about Palestinians, or simply Arabs in general?

Oh, and about the persecution thing. So have Palestinians.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Are you talking about Palestinians, or simply Arabs in general? Oh, and about the persecution thing. So have Palestinians.

That's a good question. Don't think the article
made a distinction about the 30-40s violence.
Just that it was taking place in Palestine.
But there were some Arab multinational forces
and volunteer forces there too.

I also don't really think the minority Jews at
the time were going around persecuting and murdering
Palestinians/Arabs first or really very much. They
were outnumbered and the Brits weren't helping keep
them safe like they should have it seems.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC That's a good question. Don't think the article made a distinction about the 30-40s violence. Just that it was taking place in Palestine. But there were some Arab multinational forces and volunteer forces there too. I also don't really think the minority Jews at the time were going around persecuting and murdering Palestinians/Arabs first or really very much. They were outnumbered and the Brits weren't helping keep them safe like they should have it seems.

The distinction between Arab and Palestinian is important in large part because most Arabs don't consider Palestinians to be on equal footing. Even when Palestinians weren't being persecuted by Jews (and I assure you, there were cases of such persecution ever since Balfour), they were being persecuted elsewhere. Why do you think Jordan and Egypt don't want Gaza or the West Bank?

___________________

Very true. Paletinians are just being used
by more radical elements *cough Iran* and
aren't thought of highly or equally by most
Arabs.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Very true. Paletinians are just being used by more radical elements

So are the Jews.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Very true. Paletinians are just being used by more radical elements *cough Iran*

That's not exactly why Arabs shun Palestinians. In fact, if you're talking about financial support for militant groups (which I can only assume), the biggest benefactors are Arab Saudis. Arabs get behind militant Palestinians for the same reason the Iranians do: they don't like Israel, and want to see it gone. Especially if they can get rid of it through proxy groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. But they don't like Palestine either, and don't think for a second that either would welcome the 3 million Palestinian refugees, much less contribute to their general well-being in any tangible way. For much of the Middle East, Palestinians are just expendable tools to be used to keep Israel in check. Why are they expendable? Because they're deemed to be in some way racially inferior.

___________________

I agree completely.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC I agree completely.

And yet you said this:

quote:

Before Arafat started this 2nd intifada they had a bright future, a state guaranteed, tons of investment and aid from the world. Then he decided to turn to violence for more concessions from the peace process and look at how they live now, poor and jobless...

They've been stuck between a rock and a hard place long before Arafat ever entered the picture. Sure he didn't help as much as he should have or could have. But to paint things as a matter of light before he entered and dark afterwards is neglecting to take into account an awful lot.

___________________