Saddam is more responsible for the war than Bush.
He tried the world's patience for 8 years by
not complying with resolution after resolution
by the UN. Did he really think we were bluffing
when we gave him the ultimatum? He could have stopped
it but he was a fool... Tired of everyone blaming
Bush but not this idiot...

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Oh and some might say it's the west's fault for backing
him instead of Iran (supported by Soviets) 20 years ago
but that was the lesser of two evils and no one told him
to be some damn ruthless in his rule...

quote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061230/D8MAV8LG0.html Saddam Hussein Executed for War Crimes BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Saddam Hussein, the shotgun-waving dictator who ruled Iraq with a remorseless brutality for a quarter-century and was driven from power by a U.S.-led war that left his country in shambles, was taken to the gallows and executed Saturday. It was a grim end for the 69-year-old leader who had vexed three U.S. presidents. Despite his ouster, Washington, its allies and the new Iraqi leaders remain mired in a fight to quell a stubborn insurgency by Saddam loyalists and a vicious sectarian conflict. President Bush called Saddam's execution "the kind of justice he denied the victims of his brutal regime." State-run Iraqiya television news reported that Saddam's half-brother Barzan Ibrahim and Awad Hamed al-Bandar, the former chief justice of the Revolutionary Court, also were hanged. However, three officials said only Saddam was executed. "We wanted him to be executed on a special day," National Security adviser Mouwafak al-Rubaie told state-run Iraqiyah. Al-Rubaie said Saddam "totally surrendered" and did not resist. He said a judge read the sentence to Saddam, who was taken in handcuffs to the execution room. When he stood in the execution room, photographs and video footage were taken, al-Rubaie said. "He did not ask for anything. He was carrying a Quran and said: 'I want this Quran to be given to this person,' a man he called Bander," he said. Al-Rubaie said he did not know who Bander was. Mariam al-Rayes, a legal expert and a former member of the Shiite bloc in parliament, told Iraqiya television that the execution "was filmed and God willing it will be shown. There was one camera present, and a doctor was also present there." Al-Rayes, an ally of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, did not attend the execution. She said Al-Maliki did not attend but was represented by an aide. The station earlier was airing national songs after the first announcement and had a tag on the screen that read "Saddam's execution marks the end of a dark period of Iraq's history." The execution was carried out around the start of Eid al-Adha, the Islamic world's largest holiday, which marks the end of the Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca, the hajj. Many Muslims celebrate by sacrificing domestic animals, usually sheep. Sunnis and Shiites throughout the world began observing the four-day holiday at dawn Saturday, but Iraq's Shiite community - the country's majority - was due to start celebrating on Sunday. The execution came 56 days after a court convicted Saddam and sentenced him to death for his role in the killings of 148 Shiite Muslims from a town where assassins tried to kill the dictator in 1982. Iraq's highest court rejected Saddam's appeal Monday and ordered him executed within 30 days. A U.S. judge on Friday refused to stop Saddam's execution, rejecting a last-minute court challenge. Al-Maliki had rejected calls that Saddam be spared, telling families of people killed during the dictator's rule that would be an insult to the victims. "Our respect for human rights requires us to execute him, and there will be no review or delay in carrying out the sentence," al-Maliki's office quoted him as saying during a meeting with relatives before the hanging. Human Rights Watch criticized the execution, calling Saddam's trial "deeply flawed." "Saddam Hussein was responsible for massive human rights violations, but that can't justify giving him the death penalty, which is a cruel and inhuman punishment," said Richard Dicker, director of Human Rights Watch's International Justice Program. The hanging of Saddam, who was ruthless in ordering executions of his opponents, will keep other Iraqis from pursuing justice against the ousted leader. At his death, he was in the midst of a second trial, charged with genocide and other crimes for a 1987-88 military crackdown that killed an estimated 180,000 Kurds in northern Iraq. Experts said the trial of his co-defendants was likely to continue despite his execution. Many people in Iraq's Shiite majority were eager to see the execution of a man whose Sunni Arab-dominated regime oppressed them and Kurds. Before the hanging, a mosque preacher in the Shiite holy city of Najaf on Friday called Saddam's execution "God's gift to Iraqis." "Oh, God, you know what Saddam has done! He killed millions of Iraqis in prisons, in wars with neighboring countries and he is responsible for mass graves. Oh God, we ask you to take revenge on Saddam," said Sheik Sadralddin al-Qubanji, a member of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. On Thursday, two half brothers visited Saddam in his cell, a member of the former dictator's defense team, Badee Izzat Aref, told The Associated Press by telephone from the United Arab Emirates. He said the former dictator handed them his personal belongings. A senior official at the Iraqi defense ministry said Saddam gave his will to one of his half brothers. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. In a farewell message to Iraqis posted Wednesday on the Internet, Saddam said he was giving his life for his country as part of the struggle against the U.S. "Here, I offer my soul to God as a sacrifice, and if he wants, he will send it to heaven with the martyrs," he said. One of Saddam's lawyers, Issam Ghazzawi, said the letter was written by Saddam on Nov. 5, the day he was convicted by an Iraqi tribunal in the Dujail killings. The message called on Iraqis to put aside the sectarian hatred that has bloodied their nation for a year and voiced support for the Sunni Arab-dominated insurgency against U.S.-led forces, saying: "Long live jihad and the mujahedeen." Saddam urged Iraqis to rely on God's help in fighting "against the unjust nations" that ousted his regime. Najeeb al-Nauimi, a member of Saddam's legal team, said U.S. authorities maintained physical custody of Saddam until the execution to prevent him being humiliated publicly or his corpse being mutilated, as has happened to previous Iraqi leaders deposed by force. He said they didn't want anything to happen to further inflame Sunni Arabs. "This is the end of an era in Iraq," al-Nauimi said from Doha, Qatar. "The Baath regime ruled for 35 years. Saddam was vice president or president of Iraq during those years. For Iraqis, he will be very well remembered. Like a martyr, he died for the sake of his country." Iraq's death penalty was suspended by the U.S. military after it toppled Saddam in 2003, but the new Iraqi government reinstated it two years later, saying executions would deter criminals. Saddam's own regime used executions and extrajudicial killings as a tool of political repression, both to eliminate real or suspected political opponents and to maintain a reign of terror. In the months after he seized power on July 16, 1979, he had hundreds of members of his own party and army officers slain. In 1996, he ordered the slaying of two sons-in-law who had defected to Jordan but returned to Baghdad after receiving guarantees of safety. Saddam built Iraq into a one of the Arab world's most modern societies, but then plunged the country into an eight-year war with neighboring Iran that killed hundreds of thousands of people on both sides and wrecked Iraq's economy. During that war, as part of the wider campaign against Kurds, the Iraqi military used chemical weapons against the Kurdish town of Halabja in northern Iraq, killing an estimated 5,000 civilians. The economic troubles from the Iran war led Saddam to invade Kuwait in the summer of 1990, seeking to grab its oil wealth, but a U.S.-led coalition inflicted a stinging defeat on the Iraq army and freed the Kuwaitis. U.N. sanctions imposed over the Kuwait invasion remained in place when Saddam failed to cooperate fully in international efforts to ensure his programs for creating weapons of mass destruction had been dismantled. Iraqis, once among the region's most prosperous, were impoverished. The final blow came when U.S.-led troops invaded in March 2003. Saddam's regime fell quickly, but political, sectarian and criminal violence have created chaos that has undermined efforts to rebuild Iraq's ruined economy. While he wielded a heavy hand to maintain control, Saddam also sought to win public support with a personality cult that pervaded Iraqi society. Thousands of portraits, posters, statues and murals were erected in his honor all over Iraq. His face could be seen on the sides of office buildings, schools, airports and shops and on Iraq's currency.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

Last edited by DevilDogUSMC on Dec-30-2006 at 05:51

quote:

In the general condemnation of neo-conservatism, we forget, at least as it pertains to foreign policy, it arose from a variety of causes, not the least as the reaction against the moral bankruptcy of both rightist realism and leftist appeasement. We were reminded of those poles these past few days with news that confirmed Arafat's order to murder American diplomats in Khartoum. That apparently had made no affect on Bill Clinton, at least if it were really true as legend claims that such a terrorist much later was the most frequent overnight foreign guest to the Clinton White House. Add in not just just the inaction after the first World Trade Center bombing, or Khobar Towers or the USS Cole, but all the other weird elements of appeasement, from Carter sending Ramsey Clark to beg for the hostages to Clinton dispatching Warren Christopher to sit on the Damascus tarmac and his own later praising of Iranian "democracy" as liberal. But the antipode is just as bad, when we recall selling out the Kurds to appease the Shah, Turks, and the Iraqis, the deal for arms for hostages with the theocracy, arming the crazies in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, playing off Saddam versus Khomeini, letting the Kurds and Shiites hang in the wind in 1991, the coddling of the Pakistani dictators and the House of Saud, and the infusion of Gulf money into the law firms, investment houses and arms consortia in Washington and New York, staffed with ex-administration "wise men" from both parties. In that context, Iraq in the climate of post-9/11 was an effort to find a consistent US position of toughness with terrorists and murderous dictators, and principled consistent support for reformers. For all the sorrow in Iraq, that vision is not over, and can still be realized if we stay calm and unyielding. I was reminded of what real woe was from reading today of Churchill in May-June 1940 learning that France was lost, Belgium lost, Holland lost, an entire British army trapped in Flanders and Dunkirk, told that there were no more RAF reserves, and about 200 tanks in all of Britain-and in great spirits eating breakfast at 4am, with cigar, trying to lecture the above, strengthen those at home, and without doubt of eventual victory. Victor Davis Hanson.

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC and no one told him to be some damn ruthless in his rule...

Unfortunately, that train of thought is lost on a lot of people here DD...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Oh and some might say it's the west's fault for backing him instead of Iran (supported by Soviets) 20 years ago but that was the lesser of two evils and no one told him to be some damn ruthless in his rule...

Really?
By the time the US came around to noticing Iraq as being more than a pile of sand dunes they where knee deep into Iran's guts, AFTER buying the majority of their weapons off the Soviets in the decade before.
Iran was fighting mostly (and 2-1 against them) because they got invaded and where using US weapons in that particular conflict along with US aircraft. When they began to run low of those they bought Chinese, N Korean and anything else they could lay their hands on including US weapons which where supplied to them by... come on guess?
Israel (no I am not making that up...)

Not wanting to be left out on making a buck here everyone sold stuff to Saddam, he bought stuff off the French, Chinese, Brazil, Egypt the US, UK and continued buying off the Soviets. Heck Regan even sold him chemical plants which would have a dual use of making fertiliser, insecticides and... come on, guess again?
Chemical weapons
Knowing full well what they'd be used for mostly, as did a whole heap of suppliers from Germany, France, UK and China.

And he used them on the Iranian's a lot.

I mean really, how much of a 'lesser evil' was he for the US not to have noticed that he was invading a neighbour, killing them with chemical weapons and doing a fairly solid job of it. Same said neighbour was reduced to strapping bombs to 12 and 13 year old boys and girls to stop the onslaught of tanks, troops and in its own way started off the course of matyrdom which was adopted by many other muslim causes after.
Iran was a lot of things, they didnt really like the US and for a lot of reason at the time but they really where not a threat to the US directly aside from a lot of sabre rattling, they never used chemical weapons at all though.

I'd hate to think of what the definition of a 'greater evil' would be...

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Saddam is more responsible for the war than Bush.

LOL.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Iran was a lot of things, they didnt really like the US and for a lot of reason at the time but they really where not a threat to the US directly aside from a lot of sabre rattling, they never used chemical weapons at all though.

wait a second, Iran sacked our embassy, kidnapped and tortured our diplomatic officials, killed 240 marines on a UN peacekeeping mission and blew up our Lebanese embassy earlier that year. among many other things during that time period

Iran should never be marginalized or eqivocated with anything other that fundamentalist terror and interlopers.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL.

laugh all you want, but you cannot deny he was the only one person on the planet then who could have stopped it.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo wait a second, Iran sacked our embassy, kidnapped and tortured our diplomatic officials, killed 240 marines on a UN peacekeeping mission and blew up our Lebanese embassy earlier that year. among many other things during that time period Iran should never be marginalized or eqivocated with anything other that fundamentalist terror and interlopers.

Yep and Saddam had a nasty habit of dropping gas on several 100,000 Iranians civilians and soldiers living on the border. The killing of the marines was done in 1983 wasnt it?
I mean the Iran-Iraq war had been in full swing for 3 years by then.
I still confounded why the US would have seen him as a lesser evil?

edit-
I dont want to argue history, its there and it documents the attrocities he was getting up to at the time (from both sides) in the Iran-Iraq conflict.
Read it and then come back to me and answer the question- "Why did the US see Saddam as a 'lesser evil

No more sniping and mumbling around the subject, just answer the question.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith and answer the question- "Why did the US see Saddam as a 'lesser evil No more sniping and mumbling around the subject, just answer the question.

That's an easy one (and has been answered before); Saddam was worried as much as the US was about the Islamic Revolution that looked like was going to roll right through Iraq after Iran collapsed.
Being the only one strong enough to fight it, was it any wonder the West propped him up? Saddam, as well, wasn't about to let his own power go.

At the time, at least Saddam was still willing to do business with the West even though we only trusted him as far as we could throw him; hence, 'Lesser of two evils'...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Yan Are you honestly that surprised? I'm extremely disappointed by this, by the way.

Yes, I really am. I'm disappointed as well. This trial was hastily put together. He was hastily convicted. And now he was hastily put to death.

I mean come on. From the minute this trial went about, there was no doubt in my mind that Saddam was going to be convicted. I was surprised that his appeal failed, which furthers my suspicion of there not being a fair trail.

___________________
"You won a new refrigerator, great! Where you gonna put it?" - Tony Danza

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r That's an easy one (and has been answered before); Saddam was worried as much as the US was about the Islamic Revolution that looked like was going to roll right through Iraq after Iran collapsed. Being the only one strong enough to fight it, was it any wonder the West propped him up? Saddam, as well, wasn't about to let his own power go. At the time, at least Saddam was still willing to do business with the West even though we only trusted him as far as we could throw him; hence, 'Lesser of two evils'...

Easy, funniest euphamism I've ever heard for what the US assisted in building up the largest army in the middle east and he was a monster, they knew he was a monster and Regan took him off the US's list of known terrorists in 1982. (Despite congress arguing otherwise)
As for Saddam being worried about Iran, it was never over Iran being an all encompassing muslim empire and it might be a good idea to put aside what the western media have described. It was over land, a bitter argument which goes back since goodness knows when of who owned what along the borders. When the talks between Iran and Iraq broke down, Saddam invaded because he wanted that land.
Iran being a menace as much as its been described was simply hype, theyre economy was as reliant on oil sales too the world as Iraq's and they where not particually fussy who bought it as long as the money kept coming in because they where at war.

I've got an interesting article
here and if youre still convinced it was just an 'easy' solution to Iran, then youre welcome to keep it. With what Saddam was getting up too a better description would be perhaps, a 'solution of expedience' where people wouldn't have to get their hands directly dirty, regardless of the attrocities which one side was prepared to knowingly commit and continued to commit.

I just find it extremely ironic that that same expediency in massacring people through the use of chemical weapons, which where used quite successfully in airstrikes and scuds against military and civilian targets would become the basis of a lie that later launched the 2nd gulf war and the court cases which led to Saddam's execution today.

Because this, raises the question on the whole morality of the US and its involvement in the middle east as the war against terror and the war against Iraq has repeatedly been slammed, over and over as a war of ideals and freedom.
This is, the quintessential hypocrisy of the US and its involvement in Iraq.
And to argue it is otherwise reeks of double standards the rest of the world should consider very wary when dealing with the US. Lest we wake up one morning and find ourselves 'no longer required' and 'surplus to uses'