quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oooh! touchy! fine, now im on the same page. forgive me, i had a job interview and wasnt paying too much attention so then, if you accept that people with those extreme psychological disorders are incapable, you must therefore entertain the idea that those with "simple" depression, caused by an actual biological fault, may also be incapable, or at least that the meditation might not be as successful as stabilising medication.

i don't see why i must entertain that idea, especially considering no one has even suggested a link exists between depression and meditation capability, not to mention presented a case to support such a link.

however, if you meant to say that people who are incapable of utilizing meditation and introspection due to a bioligical fault (or any other reason) can't reap the benefits of meditation, not only would i agree, i would also note the redundancy of the notion.

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quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T i don't see why i must entertain that idea, especially considering no one has even suggested a link exists between depression and meditation capability, not to mention presented a case to support such a link. however, if you meant to say that people who are incapable of utilizing meditation and introspection due to a bioligical fault (or any other reason) can't reap the benefits of meditation, not only would i agree, i would also note the redundancy of the notion.

no, thats not what im saying. at all.

you havent presented a link between a depressed person and their ability, not to meditate, but to benefit from said meditation. which is where my position lies: even if a person COULD meditate to their heart's content, there is little supporting evidence to suggest biological mental illnesses can be altered through meditation alone.

if the neural transmitters are somehow broken(as is the case in certain depressive disorders), provide evidence to suggest they can be repaired with the power of thought.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no, thats not what im saying. at all. you havent presented a link between a depressed person and their ability, not to meditate, but to benefit from said meditation. which is where my position lies: even if a person COULD meditate to their heart's content, there is little supporting evidence to suggest biological mental illnesses can be altered through meditation alone. if the neural transmitters are somehow broken(as is the case in certain depressive disorders), provide evidence to suggest they can be repaired with the power of thought.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...a-mtl082801.php
"Meditation training helps patients with chronic illnesses ranging from AIDS to sleeping disorders reduce their symptoms and improve their quality of life, according to a new study."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...h-maw111005.php
"MRI images show thickening of attention-related areas, potential reduction of aging effects"

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...Mdbp-020899.php
"Meditation decreases blood pressure"

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...m-tmr080706.php
"Transcendental Meditation reduces the brain's reaction to pain"

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...g-mmr030205.php
"Meditation may reduce heart disease risk"

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...m-tme042205.php
"Transcendental Meditation extends lifespan"

......



http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-244X/6/14
"The qualitative data indicated that mindfulness training was both acceptable and beneficial to the majority of patients. For many of the participants, being in a group was an important normalising and validating experience. However most of the group believed the course was too short and thought that some form of follow up was essential. More than half the patients continued to apply mindfulness techniques three months after the course had ended. A minority of patients continued to experience significant levels of psychological distress, particularly anxiety.

Statistically significant reductions in mean depression and anxiety scores were observed; the mean pre-course depression score was 35.7 and post-course score was 17.8 (p = 0.001). A similar reduction was noted for anxiety with a mean pre-course anxiety score of 32.0 and mean post course score of 20.5 (p = 0.039). Overall 8/11 (72%) patients showed improvements in BDI and 7/11 (63%) patients showed improvements in BAI. In general the results of the qualitative analysis agreed well with the quantitative changes in depression and anxiety reported."


if that's not enough, go here and knock yourself out.

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Last edited by Psy-T on Jan-08-2007 at 05:17

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN no, thats not what im saying. at all. you havent presented a link between a depressed person and their ability, not to meditate, but to benefit from said meditation. which is where my position lies: even if a person COULD meditate to their heart's content, there is little supporting evidence to suggest biological mental illnesses can be altered through meditation alone. if the neural transmitters are somehow broken(as is the case in certain depressive disorders), provide evidence to suggest they can be repaired with the power of thought.

Tough arguement because there are many different types of mental disorders...some of which are problems with the physical brain (i.e. chemical imbalance, fucked-up neurons, etc.) and then purely emotional issues. The brain is an extremely complex organ that modern science does not yet fully understand.
Yes, the physical ailments are only going to be potentially "cured" through medication, yet psychology could speed up the process. Purely emotional disorders caused by one's environment I believe can only be helped by the sole use of psychology...in situations like these giving a patient drugs for a disorder they do not have would only make things worse. It's a doctor's job to diagnose disorders correctly so that they can be treated correctly, easier said than done however.

ill read the others later, but just for now:

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-244X/6/14 "The qualitative data indicated that mindfulness training was both acceptable and beneficial to the majority of patients. For many of the participants, being in a group was an important normalising and validating experience. However most of the group believed the course was too short and thought that some form of follow up was essential. More than half the patients continued to apply mindfulness techniques three months after the course had ended. A minority of patients continued to experience significant levels of psychological distress, particularly anxiety. Statistically significant reductions in mean depression and anxiety scores were observed; the mean pre-course depression score was 35.7 and post-course score was 17.8 (p = 0.001). A similar reduction was noted for anxiety with a mean pre-course anxiety score of 32.0 and mean post course score of 20.5 (p = 0.039). Overall 8/11 (72%) patients showed improvements in BDI and 7/11 (63%) patients showed improvements in BAI. In general the results of the qualitative analysis agreed well with the quantitative changes in depression and anxiety reported."

11 patients? come now. lets take this seriously shall we? you also havent provided any evidence to suggest the SOURCE of such depression, making it irrelevant til you show me the depression was biological in nature. sorry psy-t.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN 11 patients? come now. lets take this seriously shall we? you also havent provided any evidence to suggest the SOURCE of such depression, making it irrelevant til you show me the depression was biological in nature. sorry psy-t.

just for fun, have a look at this http://www.antipsychiatry.org/depressi.htm

edit: particularily this bit:

Brain scans cannot distinguish a depressed person from a nondepressed person and they have not located a cause for any psychiatric disorder. Indeed, they are mainly used in biopsychiatry to promote the profession to lay audiences by giving the false impression that radiological technology can distinguish between normal people and those with psychiatric diagnoses. The usual sleight of hand involves comparing photographs of a brain scan of a depressed patient and a nondepressed patient where there happen to be other differences between the two brains. Sometimes the differences simply reflect normal variation and sometimes they reflect drug damage. Brain scans cannot show differences between the brains of depressed and normal patients because no such differences have been demonstrated." Peter R. Breggin, M.D., in his book Reclaiming Our Children (Perseus Books, Cambridge, Mass., 2000), page 293.

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I'M YO PUSHA!

I guess I'll be the voice of "medicine" on this issue.

I totally agree that medications are over prescribed, but the over-prescritption comes from a general mindset change in patients. They've been told or come to the conclusion that there is not one instant in our lives that we should ever have to deal with pain, suffering, depressing thoughts, or just general malaise.

People don't want to come to the doctor and hear them say, "this is a rough period in your life, things will get better." They want them to say, "you're unhappy, I've got some pills here (or some other "remedy") that might make you feel better, do you want to try them?" 9 times out of 10 the patient goes with the second suggestion. Most feel that even a brief moment of unhappiness is not "normal" and needs to be corrected via medication.

I blame doctors for the amount of medications people are taking today, but I blame the patients and political/legal environment just as much. As we continue to migrate into a "fast food" society where we expect instant gratification as painless and carefree as possible, we expect our medicine to do the same. Where we used to think, "I'm just having a bad month, it sucks, but things will get better." We now think, "these last couple of weeks have been a bitch, I bet I'm depressed, so I'm going to go in and take something to get rid of it."

Unless people don't realize the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist, it's expected that going to a psychiatrist will probably result in a a prescription. If you think talking will help an emotional situation, go to a psychologist instead. Psychiatry is the practice of using medicine to treat psychological disorders, and unless you're into electroshock, medicine is your best bet.

I'm not trying to discount true psychological conditions that benefit greatly from medication. I see them in my patients and even in friends and family. It is out there and it is alarmingly prevalent. However, as posters have alluded to, there are an awful lot of people on medication without any need to be.

My 2 cents.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ill read the others later, but just for now: 11 patients? come now. lets take this seriously shall we? you also havent provided any evidence to suggest the SOURCE of such depression, making it irrelevant til you show me the depression was biological in nature. sorry psy-t.

btw, i think it's your turn now to show some supporting evidence for the things you say here.

as to the 11 patients? better than nothing, i somehow doubt you can get research grants to cover many more patients than that when what you could potentially be proving could be highly damaging to an entire industry.

as to the differentiation between the sources of depression, it seems to me like no one really differentiates it 'over there' (i don't mean in that research group in particular, but in the large most of research groups engaged in such matters).

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quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T btw, i think it's your turn now to show some supporting evidence for the things you say here.

im unsure of what you are asking. surely you dont want me to cut and paste all the stories of people with depression/bipolar etc being successfully treated by medication? i would have thought that was just accepted fact??

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im unsure of what you are asking. surely you dont want me to cut and paste all the stories of people with depression/bipolar etc being successfully treated by medication? i would have thought that was just accepted fact??

showing a difference between 'nature'-depression and 'nurture'-depression would be a nice start.

___________________
People who own my ass: Citric Acid, Boomer187, Tribu, Sand Leaper,
Jackson, venomX, jamie, Renegade, Konjin, Akridrot, Miss Bliss.
Psy-T - Down The Rabbit Hole (400minute long acid set)