quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN thats pretty disingenuous. you cant possibly label an entire institution like that. soldiers have committed great acts of heroism and sacrifice just as they have committed acts of barbarity. just because you disagree with the invasion of iraq doesnt mean you shouldnt feel something for the men and women on the ground whom had no control over the decision to deploy. like it or not, militaries are essential. if only because it stops people like you and i being sent off to war.

That's exactly what the military is, an institution for brainwashing young individual to strip them of their individuality, critical & independant thinking, and make obedient hitmen out of them for the biggest thug of them all, the state. I'm not saying everyone in the military is evil, there's plently of good people in it, they just wake up to what the military is when the situation presents itself (i.e. War, but agression or state sponsored terrorism is more suitable term). I have the utmost respect for memeber who refuse to serve the facist entity know as the state, including IDF soldiers, and those exposing the degenerate and barbaric practices and protocols in the military. They're people who carry out the worst forms of agression and terrorism for their masters the state. And you have to be brainwashed to compromise your critical thinknig and your concience in order to do that. But every indivdual is responsible for the consequence of his action or inactions at the end of the day. Which is why I stopped sympathiznig with their positions ages ago (for the most part). 99 % of war have nothing to do with genuine self defense or any noble cause whatsoever. Most people just never come to question theory and see what cetain institution are in practice.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Cyrus - No care for human life? He's talking about a way to strike Iran's nuke facilities without explosives compared to tactical nukes. Think he's being considerate of life moron... And all this talk about Iran and Bin Laden 'happy' we invaded Iraq... Give me a break, I don't think they like a democracy accountable by the people & elections in their own backyard. With more than 100,000 American and Coalition Troops next door. They want us OUT of the middle east, what do you think they've been trying to do for 20 years? Terrorise the shit out of us to get us to go running. Now we're really in there and two muslim countries, Afganistan & Iraq, even Pakistan are now counted as OUR allies. They don't have 100k troops in our backyard, that's what they would be happy about, instead we've got them surrounded and on the run. Bin Laden has said he expected us to go running after 9/11 from the region and instead we've messed their entire safe haven and training camps in Afganistan and another hostile regime in Iraq. Bin Laden is in a cave hiding. And stop with the 'If US invaded Iran they'd be bogged down' BS. EVERYONE knows we don't want to invade or have a ground war, or regime change. Stop using that dumb arguement that we'd be bogged down like Iraq crap. We're going to bomb their Nuke research and send it back ten years. Look who's talking, you resort to juvenile name calling and cursing when you don't have anything productive to say. And once in a blue after making generalized comments about the military you put (some of them). It's not MOST of them so you should word it differently moron. Since some are dumbass and most are good people then you should stop labeling them every chance you get as rapists and murderers.

You're really in no position to argue or criticize anyone here my friend. Not just me, several others here have crushed your arguments and credibility with which you respond with empty apologetic comments trying to save face. You should consider doing better research before you debate an issue here. There several people here who've done their homework. If you want to stand a change agaisnt them, you still have alot to learn.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's exactly what the military is, an institution for brainwashing young individual to strip them of their individuality, critical & independant thinking, and make obedient hitmen out of them for the biggest thug of them all, the state.

of course. a soldier's duty is to follow orders without question. given that a soldier's role can (and does) save the lives of those around them, i dont see the "brain-washing" (its really combat conditioning imo) as an inherent evil. you could say the same for any strict hierarchical system where people are expected to do as theyre told.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z They're people who carry out the worst forms of agression and terrorism for their masters the state.

thats just fancy word-play. war is a terrible terrible NECESSARY evil. there are too many instances in just the 100 years of violence being completely justified. like it or not sometimes push must come to shove. and like it or not the american armed forced have been involved in much of the "humanitarian" warfare in this period.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z And you have to be brainwashed to compromise your critical thinknig and your concience in order to do that. But every indivdual is responsible for the consequence of his action or inactions at the end of the day. Which is why I stopped sympathiznig with their positions ages ago (for the most part). 99 % of war have nothing to do with genuine self defense or any noble cause whatsoever. Most people just never come to question theory and see what cetain institution are in practice.

very true. its more than just to judge those on the ground that carry out indiscriminate killings and rapes etc. but i think its a little unfair to carry that opinion over the men and women that serve their country with distinction. wars are always going to occur, and as already said, these men and women prevent the rest of us from donning a uniform. i think your stat of "99%" is a little harsh too.

as far as i am concerned, as long as a soldier is following the articles of war, they deserve our thanks for putting their lives on the line in my stead.

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Simplify it for you people:

What does Iran and Al Qaeda want? The entire middle
east an islamic republic (no democracies), Israel
wiped out, and no US presence so they can do what
they want.

Instead they have over 100k American troops, substantial
naval forces in the region, two new democracies, loss of
Taliban Afganistan's sanctuary & training camps, and Israel
is thriving.

Most Arab countries except Syria hate Iran and it's
nuclear research and regional ambitions, plus Bin Laden
who wants to overthrow their governments.

And you people claim 'They've got you right where they want
you muahahaha'. You guys are too funny lol.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by DevilDogUSMC Simplify it for you people: What does Iran want? The entire middle east an islamic republic (no democracies), and no US presence so they can do what they want.

Well can u blame em. The last thing the West gave em was a military dictator for 3 decades that gave 90% of their natural resources to the West. So the people stepped up & had a revolution. Then the people spoke & made thier own Islamic State.

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quote:

Originally posted by jonSun Well can u blame em. The last thing the West gave em was a military dictator for 3 decades that gave 90% of their natural resources to the West. So the people stepped up & had a revolution. Then the people spoke & made thier own Islamic State.

...while murdering 100s of thousands of their own people, enslaving their women and giving no one any hope of ever accomplishing anything with their life while at the same time making them wholy dependant on their totalitarian regime. Yea, that's just a much better idea...
Long live Che...

I understand what you're trying to say, but if they're going to LET Western investors come in with their money and create jobs for YOUR country, don't be surprised if they get a little pissed off when you nationalize their investments and disrupt a very valuable comodity.

I don't understand why they just don't use the money they're getting from the West to their advantage and help their own people move forward.
Create their own businesses, create more jobs, etc.
What they have done is a GREAT job of keeping themselves in the Stone Age all worried about their piety, meanwhile we've just about got the Jetsons over here...

where the hell did my robot maid go....

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r I don't understand why they just don't use the money they're getting from the West to their advantage and help their own people move forward. Create their own businesses, create more jobs, etc. What they have done is a GREAT job of keeping themselves in the Stone Age all worried about their piety, meanwhile we've just about got the Jetsons over here...

amen.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r ...while murdering 100s of thousands of their own people, enslaving their women and giving no one any hope of ever accomplishing anything with their life while at the same time making them wholy dependant on their totalitarian regime. Yea, that's just a much better idea... Long live Che... I understand what you're trying to say, but if they're going to LET Western investors come in with their money and create jobs for YOUR country, don't be surprised if they get a little pissed off when you nationalize their investments and disrupt a very valuable comodity. I don't understand why they just don't use the money they're getting from the West to their advantage and help their own people move forward. Create their own businesses, create more jobs, etc. What they have done is a GREAT job of keeping themselves in the Stone Age all worried about their piety, meanwhile we've just about got the Jetsons over here... where the hell did my robot maid go....

While I agree with you on most points, they do have a relatively low cost of living due to high government subsidies on fuel and public transportation. Persians are a generally relaxed and laid back culture.

Without wanting to pick a religious fight with anyone, some of the failings of their culture that you're describing point more towards the theocracy and it's heavy application of religion on people's lives.

The same arguments can be said for other nations like Saudi Arabia who don't exactly have a stellar record on human rights of progress for women either.

I do agree that their mouthpiece (Ahmedinejad) is a nutter and isn't doing the nation any public relations favours in the least. I wonder what the next guy will do.

When does Ahmedinejad's term end now that he was voted out of office?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN of course. a soldier's duty is to follow orders without question. given that a soldier's role can (and does) save the lives of those around them, i dont see the "brain-washing" (its really combat conditioning imo) as an inherent evil. you could say the same for any strict hierarchical system where people are expected to do as theyre told.

Exactly my point. Chickenhawks need an army of brainwashed people to do their dirty work for them.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN thats just fancy word-play. war is a terrible terrible NECESSARY evil. there are too many instances in just the 100 years of violence being completely justified. like it or not sometimes push must come to shove. and like it or not the american armed forced have been involved in much of the "humanitarian" warfare in this period.

Pfft... America and humanitarian work don't belong in the same sentence, unless it's global PR. And by your logic, terrorism is a "necessary evil."

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN very true. its more than just to judge those on the ground that carry out indiscriminate killings and rapes etc. but i think its a little unfair to carry that opinion over the men and women that serve their country with distinction. wars are always going to occur, and as already said, these men and women prevent the rest of us from donning a uniform. i think your stat of "99%" is a little harsh too.

It is harsh, so is reality.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN as far as i am concerned, as long as a soldier is following the articles of war, they deserve our thanks for putting their lives on the line in my stead.

I wouldn't thank someone for sacrificing their mind and body for mafia dons. At the most, I'd feel sorry for them for being such delusional fools.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I wouldn't thank someone for sacrificing their mind and body for mafia dons. At the most, I'd feel sorry for them for being such delusional fools.

Labeling the entire military again when you concede it's a
very small minority doing bad stuff. You come off as a moron.

___________________

Electric Zoo 2010! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVE-RutexSE

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Exactly my point. Chickenhawks need an army of brainwashed people to do their dirty work for them. Pfft... America and humanitarian work don't belong in the same sentence, unless it's global PR. And by your logic, terrorism is a "necessary evil." It is harsh, so is reality. I wouldn't thank someone for sacrificing their mind and body for mafia dons. At the most, I'd feel sorry for them for being such delusional fools.

honestly, that just reads like a kids tantrum.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN honestly, that just reads like a kids tantrum.

If you insist. I think being a kid is having stupid notions about the military like most people and even more stupid sentimental attatchement to "our troops." And ridiculous indoctrinated beliefs like "service to the country." What service? The state isn't owned by the people, it's owned by the Oligarch. Most people never grow up and wake up to reality. Their childish fantasies and dreamwordls give their weak feeble mind far too much comfort.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller