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emc^2
FCK MNML



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: 255.255.255.255

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Spoken like a true Zionist (aka Nazi).


quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
I find it amusing that you blow your father with that filthy mouth of yours.


*FIXED*


___________________
quote:
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

Old Post Jun-05-2007 16:26 
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venomX
ISO salty whenches



Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Vancouver, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by emc^2
*FIXED*


Useless ad hominem, refer to the rules of this forum. If you can't keep it civil, leave.


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quote:
Orbax
At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

Old Post Jun-05-2007 16:30  Dominican Republic
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emc^2
FCK MNML



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: 255.255.255.255

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
Your post represents all that's wrong with the US's and other countries foreign policy. You think these people are like this by nature? Or did they become like this due to certain circumstances? If you don't believe they are inherently like this then knowing why they became like this is critical to solving any situation. Saying that 'oh the problem is right there, they are brainwashing they're kids' leads to 'lets stop them from brainwashing them'. But that doesn't solve anything in the long run does it? You stop them from brainwashing they're kids, they'll come up with some other strategy.

On 'Victimhood', it's the same thing. People are usually victims of circumstance. Not to say that they're decisions don't count, but it is pretty well established that circumstances have more to do with decision making than internal dispositions. So if you are to evaluate someone's behavior the circumstances are crucial to understanding why that person behaved that way.

In light of this, I state my point again, knowing why these people (in the middle east) became this way will lead to better solutions. You say, people have known why for many years. I say, the foreign policy of many a country, including the US (even when you say they know the reasons behind the struggle) do not take into account those reasons.


WITHOUT picking apart every misconception, I'm only going to say one thing. Palestinians (and many other Arab nations) want nothing less than complete and total eradication of the state of Israel. No other solution, compromise, proposition, change of policy, raindance, and welcome wagon is going to do. They'll take less, though, only for time being. Until more can be demanded. Once Israel is no longer on the map, they will find another cause, enemy, reason, etc. to continue this Jihadis vs Crussaders. It's not any more about Israel than it is Islam vs. Christianity and everyone else. The goal of Islam is not to co-exist in peace. It's to accomplish a total world domination of Islam. That's part of the Islam dogma - the so-called 2nd coming will only happen when everyone is muslim.

Accomplishing that goal means using ANY MEANS NECESSARY. Oh, and just in case - Israel represents not just a "Holy land" but also a symbolic center of many faiths - Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism. Capturing it and making it "muslim" is of no lesser importance than being Muslim, making a Hajj pilligramage, etc.

So, for Israel, there's really not much of a compromise - surrender completely and die out or face the music and defend yourself.

I don't want to re-hash any more arguments, as it is totally pointless - we all know that no one will convince anyone else. We're all going to remain fixated on our own thoughts/ideas, so, let's just drop the entire BS conversation.


___________________
quote:
No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

--Steve Jobs (1955 - 2011)

Last edited by emc^2 on Jun-05-2007 at 16:43

Old Post Jun-05-2007 16:38 
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Yohan
Champion of Deep&Nu-disco



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Kitchener, Ont, Soviet Canuckistan

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
True, but to get to the real root of extremist islam you have to go back to Western policy in the Middle East. Extremist Islam will never die out with the current set of policies towards the middle east, the US and Israel's actions on average only perpetuate the existence of extremist Islam. Of course, I am not saying that the palestinians themselves have no responsibility. What I am saying is that they have less of a chance of stopping the cycle of violence than do other mayor players.

Eh.

Extremist Islam have existed since the formation of Islam, even during the period of Rashidum (632-661) when Kharajites Muslim separatists and Muslims hacked each other to bits over some doctrinal points in Islam.

Because Islam is a very political religion, extremists have caused unrest in Middle East for ages.

20th century Western influence over Middle East is just another phase for political extremist movement. Shia and Sunnis are still blowing each other up and to say that real root of extremist Islam is Western policy in Middle East is very questionable IMO.

As for the kindergarten graduation video, if you want to raise killers, gotta start training them young.

This who's more evil debate is like arguing which side is more grey.

Gen. Zinni's autobiography is an interesting read about Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in the 90s. Worth a read.


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quote:
Originally posted by chinamon
not true. i say "ugh"
but i am a tranny.
quote:
Originally posted by kotsy
lol colour me retarded

Old Post Jun-06-2007 04:20  Canada
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Fir3start3r
Armin Acolyte



Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTree
Eh.

Extremist Islam have existed since the formation of Islam, even during the period of Rashidum (632-661) when Kharajites Muslim separatists and Muslims hacked each other to bits over some doctrinal points in Islam.

Because Islam is a very political religion, extremists have caused unrest in Middle East for ages.

20th century Western influence over Middle East is just another phase for political extremist movement. Shia and Sunnis are still blowing each other up and to say that real root of extremist Islam is Western policy in Middle East is very questionable IMO.

As for the kindergarten graduation video, if you want to raise killers, gotta start training them young.

This who's more evil debate is like arguing which side is more grey.

Gen. Zinni's autobiography is an interesting read about Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in the 90s. Worth a read.


Well put.
Why do people conveniently forget Islam's history? Just to spite 'The West'? Shortsighted indeed...


___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
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Old Post Jun-06-2007 04:31  Canada
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Why do people conveniently forget Islam's history? Just to spite 'The West'? Shortsighted indeed...

No, its a case of them going through the same things that Christianity did with Protestants vs Catholics and coming to a peaceful solution after a lot of bloodletting over who's idea of god is better, agreeing to disagree and getting on with their lives without coming to blows. Then there's a chance of peace at least amongst themselves, contrary to what the news displays, the muslim world isn't at war with their neighbours all the time.

There will also need to be something of a catharsis where one half of it's followers aren't marginalised and discriminated against simply because of gender, that is something that even 'the west' is still coming to terms with on a lot of fronts. It would be interesting to see how strong the faith is in some placed in a woman's shoes for a year and see just how many of it's proponents are as keen to continue that course of behaviour.

In it's current form with Sharia law being in it's current form, is a an antithesis to liberal democracy in as much as fascism is. Being most of us posting here are living in a liberal democracy, we're used to avoiding saying that because it's considered improper to comment on the practices of minority groups in our own countries.
That, that will come back to hurt them as it's used against residents of those societies mechanisms for the minority to gain more say than is accorded to anyone else with a minority veiwpoint. It's one of the better things about liberal democracy in some sense of moderation that the little guys get their fair say, but they've become conditioned to behave in a way where the nosiest, squeakiest wheels get the attention.
Westerners don't understand this, they think they've come 'further' along the line of social development, when in reality they've simply moved direction along a different parallel course. Neither is perfect system, simply so perfectly different that they will never understand each other.
About the only thing either has in common is that violence still comes very easy to both of them.

Old Post Jun-06-2007 05:34 
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by venomX
True, but to get to the real root of extremist islam you have to go back to Western policy in the Middle East. Extremist Islam will never die out with the current set of policies towards the middle east, the US and Israel's actions on average only perpetuate the existence of extremist Islam. Of course, I am not saying that the palestinians themselves have no responsibility. What I am saying is that they have less of a chance of stopping the cycle of violence than do other mayor players.


oh come on. if it weren't for the zionist and US enemies, the palestinians and arab nations would simply be fighting each other. you know, like hamas and fatah are now.

ive always liked this article:

quote:

Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish?
Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes.

Since World War II, no state has suffered so cruel a reversal of fortunes as Israel. Admired all the way into the 1970s as the state of “those plucky Jews” who survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a climate hostile to both liberty and greenery, Israel has become the target of creeping delegitimization. The denigration comes in two guises.

The first, the soft version, blames Israel first and most for whatever ails the Middle East, and for having corrupted U.S. foreign policy. It is the standard fare of editorials around the world, not to mention the sheer venom oozing from the pages of the Arab-Islamic press. The more recent hard version zeroes in on Israel’s very existence. According to this dispensation, it is Israel as such, and not its behavior, that lies at the root of troubles in the Middle East. Hence the “statocidal” conclusion that Israel’s birth, midwifed by both the United States and the Soviet Union in 1948, was a grievous mistake, grandiose and worthy as it may have been at
the time.

The soft version is familiar enough. One motif is the “wagging the dog” theory. Thus, in the United States, the “Jewish lobby” and a cabal of neoconservatives have bamboozled the Bush administration into a mindless pro-Israel policy inimical to the national interest. This view attributes, as has happened so often in history, too much clout to the Jews. And behind this charge lurks a more general one—that it is somehow antidemocratic for subnational groups to throw themselves into the hurly-burly of politics when it comes to foreign policy. But let us count the ways in which subnational entities battle over the national interest: unions and corporations clamor
for tariffs and tax loopholes; nongovernmental organizations agitate for humanitarian intervention; and Cuban Americans keep us from smoking cheroots from the Vuelta Abajo. In previous years, Poles militated in favor of Solidarity, African Americans against Apartheid South Africa, and Latvians against the Soviet Union. In other words, the democratic melee has never stopped at the water’s edge.

Another soft version is the “root-cause” theory in its many variations. Because the “obstinate” and “recalcitrant” Israelis are the main culprits, they must be punished and pushed back for the sake of peace. “Put pressure on Israel”; “cut economic and military aid”; “serve them notice that we will not condone their brutalities”—these have been the boilerplate homilies, indeed the obsessions, of the chattering classes and the foreign-office establishment for decades. Yet, as Sigmund Freud reminded us, obsessions tend to spread. And so there are ever more creative addenda to the
well-wrought root-cause theory. Anatol Lieven of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace argues that what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians is a “tremendous obstacle to democratization because it inflames all the worst, most regressive aspects of Arab nationalism and Arab culture.” In other words, the conflict drives the pathology, and not the other way around—which is like the streetfighter explaining to the police:
“It all started when this guy hit back.”

The problem with this root-cause argument is threefold: It blurs, if not reverses, cause and effect. It ignores a myriad of conflicts unrelated to Israel. And it absolves the Arabs of culpability, shifting the blame to you know whom. If one believes former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, the Arab-Islamic quest for weapons of mass destruction, and by extension the war against Iraq, are also Made in Israel. “[A]s long as Israel has nuclear weapons,” Ritter opines, “it has chosen to take a path that is inherently
confrontational.…Now the Arab countries, the Muslim world, is not about to sit back and let this happen, so they will seek their own deterrent. We saw this in Iraq, not only with a nuclear deterrent but also with a biological weapons deterrent…that the Iraqis were developing to offset the Israeli nuclear superiority.”

This theory would be engaging if it did not collide with some inconvenient facts. Iraqis didn’t use their weapons of mass destruction against the Israeli usurper but against fellow Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War, and against fellow Iraqis in the poison-gas attack against Kurds in Halabja in 1988—neither of whom were brandishing any nuclear weapons. As for the Iraqi nuclear program, we now have the “Duelfer Report,” based on the debriefing of Iraqi regime loyalists, which concluded: “Iran was the pre-eminent
motivator of this policy. All senior-level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq’s principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.”

Now to the hard version. Ever so subtly, a more baleful tone slips into this narrative: Israel is not merely an unruly neighbor but an unwelcome intruder. Still timidly uttered outside the Arab world, this version’s proponents in the West bestride the stage as truth-sayers who dare to defy taboo. Thus, the British writer A.N. Wilson declares that he has reluctantly come to the conclusion that Israel, through its own actions, has proven it does not have the right to exist. And, following Sept. 11, 2001, Brazilian scholar Jose Arthur Giannotti said: “Let us agree that the history of the Middle East would be entirely different without the State of Israel, which
opened a wound between Islam and the West. Can you get rid of Muslim
terrorism without getting rid of this wound which is the source of the frustration of potential terrorists?”

The very idea of a Jewish state is an “anachronism,” argues Tony Judt, a professor and director of the Remarque Institute at New York University. It resembles a “late-nineteenth-century separatist project” that has “no place” in this wondrous new world moving toward the teleological perfection of multiethnic and multicultural togetherness bound together by international law. The time has come to “think the unthinkable,” hence, to ditch this Jewish state for a binational one, guaranteed, of course, by international force.

So let us assume that Israel is an anachronism and a historical mistake without which the Arab-Islamic world stretching from Algeria to Egypt, from Syria to Pakistan, would be a far happier place, above all because the original sin, the establishment of Israel, never would have been committed.
Then let’s move from the past to the present, pretending that we could wave a mighty magic wand, and “poof,” Israel disappears from the map.

Civilization of Clashes
Let us start the what-if procession in 1948, when Israel was born in war. Would stillbirth have nipped the Palestinian problem in the bud? Not quite. Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon marched on Haifa and Tel Aviv not to liberate Palestine, but to grab it. The invasion was a textbook competitive power play by neighboring states intent on acquiring territory for themselves. If they had been victorious, a Palestinian state would not have emerged, and there still would have been plenty of refugees.
(Recall that half the population of Kuwait fled Iraqi dictator Saddam
Hussein’s “liberation” of that country in 1990.) Indeed, assuming that Palestinian nationalism had awakened when it did in the late 1960s and 1970s, the Palestinians might now be dispatching suicide bombers to Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere.

Let us imagine Israel had disappeared in 1967, instead of occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, which were held, respectively, by Jordan’s King Hussein and Egypt’s President Gamal Abdel Nasser. Would they have relinquished their possessions to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and thrown in Haifa and Tel Aviv for good measure? Not likely. The two potentates, enemies in all but name, were united only by their common hatred and fear of Arafat, the founder of Fatah (the Palestine National Liberation Movement) and rightly suspected of plotting against Arab regimes. In short, the “root cause” of Palestinian statelessness would have persisted, even in Israel’s
absence.

Let us finally assume, through a thought experiment, that Israel goes “poof” today. How would this development affect the political pathologies of the Middle East? Only those who think the Palestinian issue is at the core of the Middle East conflict would lightly predict a happy career for this most dysfunctional region once Israel vanishes. For there is no such thing as “the” conflict. A quick count reveals five ways in which the region’s fortunes would remain stunted—or worse:

States vs. States: Israel’s elimination from the regional balance would hardly bolster intra-Arab amity. The retraction of the colonial powers, Britain and France, in the mid-20th century left behind a bunch of young Arab states seeking to redraw the map of the region. From the very beginning, Syria laid claim to Lebanon. In 1970, only the Israeli military deterred Damascus from invading Jordan under the pretext of supporting a Palestinian uprising. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Nasser’s Egypt proclaimed itself the avatar of pan-Arabism, intervening in Yemen during the 1960s. Nasser’s successor, President Anwar Sadat, was embroiled in on-and-off clashes with Libya throughout the late 1970s. Syria marched into Lebanon in 1976 and then effectively annexed the country 15 years later, and Iraq launched two wars against fellow Muslim states: Iran in 1980, Kuwait in 1990. The war against Iran was the longest conventional war of the 20th century. None of these conflicts is related to the Israeli-Palestinian one. Indeed, Israel’s disappearance would only liberate military assets for use in such internal rivalries.

Believers vs. Believers: Those who think that the Middle East conflict is a “Muslim-Jewish thing” had better take a closer look at the score card: 14 years of sectarian bloodshed in Lebanon; Saddam’s campaign of extinction against the Shia in the aftermath of the first Gulf War; Syria’s massacre of 20,000 people in the Muslim Brotherhood stronghold of Hama in 1982; and terrorist violence against Egyptian Christians in the 1990s. Add to this tally intraconfessional oppression, such as in Saudi Arabia, where the fundamentalist Wahhabi sect wields the truncheon of state power to inflict its dour lifestyle on the less devout.

Ideologies vs. Ideologies: Zionism is not the only “ism” in the region, which is rife with competing ideologies. Even though the Baathist parties in Syria and Iraq sprang from the same fascist European roots, both have vied for precedence in the Middle East. Nasser wielded pan-Arabism-cum-socialism against the Arab nation-state. And both Baathists and Nasserites have opposed the monarchies, such as in Jordan. Khomeinist Iran and Wahhabite Saudi Arabia remain mortal enemies. What is the connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Nil, with the exception of Hamas, a terror army of the faithful once supported by Israel as a rival to the Palestine Liberation Organization and now responsible for many suicide bombings in Israel. But will Hamas disband once Israel is gone? Hardly. Hamas has bigger ambitions than eliminating the “Zionist entity.” The organization seeks nothing less than a unified Arab state under a regime of God.

Reactionary Utopia vs. Modernity: A common enmity toward Israel is the only thing that prevents Arab modernizers and traditionalists from tearing their societies apart. Fundamentalists vie against secularists and reformist Muslims for the fusion of mosque and state under the green flag of the Prophet. And a barely concealed class struggle pits a minuscule bourgeoisie and millions of unemployed young men against the power structure, usually a form of statist cronyism that controls the means of production. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains the antagonisms in the world
around it.

Regimes vs. Peoples: The existence of Israel cannot explain the breadth and depth of the Mukhabarat states (secret police states) throughout the Middle East. With the exceptions of Jordan, Morocco, and the Gulf sheikdoms, which gingerly practice an enlightened monarchism, all Arab countries (plus Iran and Pakistan) are but variations of despotism—from the dynastic dictatorship of Syria to the authoritarianism of Egypt. Intranational strife in Algeria
has killed nearly 100,000, with no letup in sight. Saddam’s victims are said to number 300,000. After the Khomeinists took power in 1979, Iran was embroiled not only in the Iran-Iraq War but also in barely contained civil unrest into the 1980s. Pakistan is an explosion waiting to happen. Ruthless suppression is the price of stability in this region.

Again, it would take a florid imagination to surmise that factoring Israel out of the Middle East equation would produce liberal democracy in the region. It might be plausible to argue that the dialectic of enmity somehow favors dictatorship in “frontline states” such as Egypt and Syria—governments that invoke the proximity of the “Zionist threat” as a pretext to suppress dissent. But how then to explain the mayhem in faraway Algeria, the bizarre cult-of-personality regime in Libya, the pious kleptocracy of Saudi Arabia, the clerical despotism of Iran, or democracy’s enduring failure to take root in Pakistan? Did Israel somehow cause the various putsches that produced the republic of fear in Iraq? If Jordan, the state sharing the longest border with Israel, can experiment with
constitutional monarchy, why not Syria?

It won’t do to lay the democracy and development deficits of the Arab world on the doorstep of the Jewish state. Israel is a pretext, not a cause, and therefore its dispatch will not heal the self-inflicted wounds of the Arab-Islamic world. Nor will the mild version of “statocide,” a binational state, do the trick—not in view of the “civilization of clashes” (to borrow a term from British historian Niall Ferguson) that is the hallmark of Arab political culture. The mortal struggle between Israelis and Palestinians
would simply shift from the outside to the inside.

My Enemy, Myself
Can anybody proclaim in good conscience that these dysfunctionalities of the Arab world would vanish along with Israel? Two U.N. “Arab Human Development Reports,” written by Arab authors, say no. The calamities are homemade. Stagnation and hopelessness have three root causes. The first is lack of freedom. The United Nations cites the persistence of absolute autocracies, bogus elections, judiciaries beholden to executives, and constraints on civil society. Freedom of expression and association are also sharply limited. The second root cause is lack of knowledge: Sixty-five million adults are illiterate, and some 10 million children have no schooling at all. As such, the Arab world is dropping ever further behind in scientific research and the development of information technology. Third, female
participation in political and economic life is the lowest in the world. Economic growth will continue to lag as long as the potential of half the population remains largely untapped.

Will all of this right itself when that Judeo-Western insult to Arab pride finally vanishes? Will the millions of unemployed and bored young men, cannon fodder for the terrorists, vanish as well—along with one-party rule, corruption, and closed economies? This notion makes sense only if one cherishes single-cause explanations or, worse, harbors a particular animus against the Jewish state and its refusal to behave like Sweden. (Come to think of it, Sweden would not be Sweden either if it lived in the Hobbesian world of the Middle East.)

Finally, the most popular what-if issue of them all: Would the Islamic world hate the United States less if Israel vanished? Like all what-if queries, this one, too, admits only suggestive evidence. To begin, the notion that 5 million Jews are solely responsible for the rage of 1 billion or so Muslims cannot carry the weight assigned to it. Second, Arab-Islamic hatreds of the United States preceded the conquest of the West Bank and Gaza. Recall the loathing left behind by the U.S.-managed coup that restored the shah’s rule in Tehran in 1953, or the U.S. intervention in Lebanon in 1958. As soon as
Britain and France left the Middle East, the United States became the
dominant power and the No. 1 target. Another bit of suggestive evidence is that the fiercest (unofficial) anti-Americanism emanates from Washington’s self-styled allies in the Arab Middle East, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is this situation because of Israel—or because it is so convenient for these regimes to “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels” (as Shakespeare’s Henry IV put it) to distract their populations from their dependence on the “Great Satan”?

Take the Cairo Declaration against “U.S. hegemony,” endorsed by 400
delegates from across the Middle East and the West in December 2002. The lengthy indictment mentions Palestine only peripherally. The central condemnation, uttered in profuse variation, targets the United States for monopolizing power “within the framework of capitalist globalization,” for reinstating “colonialism,” and for blocking the “emergence of forces that would shift the balance of power toward multi-polarity.” In short, Global America is responsible for all the afflictions of the Arab world, with Israel coming in a distant second.

This familiar tale has an ironic twist: One of the key signers is Nader Fergany, lead author of the 2002 U.N. Arab Human Development Report. So even those who confess to the internal failures of the Arab world end up blaming “the Other.” Given the enormity of the indictment, ditching Israel will not absolve the United States. Iran’s Khomeinists have it right, so to speak, when they denounce America as the “Great Satan” and Israel only as the “Little Satan,” a handmaiden of U.S. power. What really riles America-haters in the Middle East is Washington’s intrusion into their affairs, be it for
reasons of oil, terrorism, or weapons of mass destruction. This fact is why Osama bin Laden, having attached himself to the Palestinian cause only as an afterthought, calls the Americans the new crusaders, and the Jews their imperialist stand-ins.

None of this is to argue in favor of Israel’s continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, nor to excuse the cruel hardship it imposes on the Palestinians, which is pernicious, even for Israel’s own soul. But as this analysis suggests, the real source of Arab angst is the West as a palpable symbol of misery and an irresistible target of what noted Middle East scholar Fouad Ajami has called “Arab rage.” The puzzle is why so many Westerners, like those who signed the Cairo Declaration, believe otherwise.

Is this anti-Semitism, as so many Jews are quick to suspect? No, but denying Israel’s legitimacy bears an uncanny resemblance to some central features of this darkest of creeds. Accordingly, the Jews are omnipotent, ubiquitous, and thus responsible for the evils of the world. Today, Israel finds itself in an analogous position, either as handmaiden or manipulator of U.S. might. The soft version sighs: “If only Israel were more reasonable…” The semihard version demands that “the United States pull the rug out from under Israel”
to impose the pliancy that comes from impotence. And the hard-hard version dreams about salvation springing from Israel’s disappearance.

Why, sure—if it weren’t for that old joke from Israel’s War of Independence: While the bullets were whistling overhead and the two Jews in their foxhole were running out of rounds, one griped, “If the Brits had to give us a country not their own, why couldn’t they have given us Switzerland?” Alas, Israel is just a strip of land in the world’s most noxious neighborhood, and the cleanup hasn’t even begun.


Josef Joffe is the publisher of Die Zeit, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution, and distinguished fellow at the Institute for International Studies, both at Stanford University.


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Old Post Jun-06-2007 06:28  Australia
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M.Johan
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location: CAIRO ,EGYPT

quote:
Originally posted by EvilTree
Extremist Islam have existed since the formation of Islam, even during the period of Rashidum (632-661) when Kharajites Muslim separatists and Muslims hacked each other to bits over some doctrinal points in Islam.
Because Islam is a very political religion, extremists have caused unrest in Middle East for ages.

Who's said that?
Islam hasn't any Extremist ideologies,
u can blame some (muslims) in those "little" ages,but not the Islam as a religion,
and at the same time u can also blame some (christians) in those "middle ages" which're the worest ages,but not the Christian as a religion.
Some persons use a message "Under the name of God" who can do any propaganda actions against the others,but in M.East
it doesnot exist except in few ages ago not "now".
quote:
20th century Western influence over Middle East is just another phase for political extremist movement. Shia and Sunnis are still blowing each other up and to say that real root of extremist Islam is Western policy in Middle East is very questionable IMO.

In Iraq (some facts will b mentioned later)
Shiaa and Sunni live together in Iran ,Egypt Saudi Arabia,Syria
there's no conflict and discrimination actions between each others.
quote:
As for the kindergarten graduation video, if you want to raise killers, gotta start training them young.
This who's more evil debate is like arguing which side is more grey.
Gen. Zinni's autobiography is an interesting read about Israeli-Palestinian negotiations in the 90s. Worth a read.

The same thing is found in Israel and America
but it doesnot mean that we accept these things.


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Charles de Gaulle

Old Post Jun-06-2007 09:03  Egypt
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Just love how this has turned into a chicken and egg argument when there is none.
The truth is caught on video. EOD.

But are not the contents of that video part of the "chicken and egg argument" you criticise?

Can you not understand that the whole conflict, going right back before the creation of Israel is all chickens and all eggs?

The Palestinians need to stop brainwashing their kids and Israel needs to evacuate ALL settlements and withdraw from the occupied territories...but what will come first? The chicken or the egg?

Israel and its supporters make such a big issue about how Israel is a democracy, that it is moral and just, well if that is true then Israel can act like it and take the first step...

Old Post Jun-06-2007 14:52  England
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Spoken like a true Zionist (aka Nazi).


Just because you think that something blue looks green does not make it yellow.

So please save us your nonsense and actually make some arguments for a change.

Zionism is not Nazism. You don't see any Palestinians being mass executed by gas in death camps. Nazis killed 6 million Jews in about 5 years. Do you think it would take so long to kill a million odd Palestinians all centralized in two locations?

Zionism and Palestinians are not mutually exclusive.

I'm a Zionist and I have nothing against Palestinians (except my political emotions for their pathetic excuse of a society) as human beings. Can you say the same about how you feel about Zionists? (Using your statement above as evidence) It would seem you are the true Nazi in this picture.

Grow up and start calling the colors by their name.


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Old Post Jun-06-2007 14:54  Israel
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
sanity.

Sanity?! It didn't even make sense!

He asks why it is crucial, and to need to ask that question (especially rhetorically to suggest there is no need) shows a complete lack of common sense.

Why should we seek to understand the causes of terrorism? Stupid question really when the answer is blindingly obvious - so we can STOP it

Old Post Jun-06-2007 14:57  England
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Yoepus
Neo-condimist



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Ketchup fields, Texas

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Israel came in to existance via ethnic cleansing, persecution, death, desruction, deciet, theft, tremendous pressure on Western goverments for it's creation and continued existance (Balford Declaration of 1917 and AIPAC), and helping Hitler's rise to power in order to generate support for Zionism by slaughtering Sephardic and even Ashkenazi Jews, amongst numerous other victims of the holocaust. So Zioinsts are a death cult, you're quite correct on that. They'll even slaughter Jews to achieve their political and ideological objectives.


So what you are saying is two wrongs make a right?


Right?


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Old Post Jun-06-2007 15:17  Israel
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Kindergarten Graduation Ceremony in Gaza
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