quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Oh come on, you must see some of the muslim communities in the UK becoming more insular and less inclined to interact with the rest of the country? I mean even on a micro level my little cousin in Derby tells me that she can't have some of her friends at school come over because she's not a muslim, because their parent's wont let them.

Yes I see them, but I don't see what you want the UK to do about them? All I see on TA is people making observations and offering no solutions. What do YOU think the UK should do to tackle this problem?

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These attacks when Brown takes the reins and distances the UK from the US middle east activity, they're not going to stop when we pull all the troops out and even now, when we are pulling troops out, they're still running bombs in. Not on politicians, not on army bases or government buildings or part of the military infrastructure. They blow up public transport which is full of the public!

Yes it is a classic terror tactic used by every terrorist group I can think of. How strange that these terrorists use the same tactic of killing innocent people! And don't kid yourself about Brown "distancing" himself from Blair's foreign policy. It's not changed. We had already began moving troops out of Iraq and we had already planned for more. These attacks probably were planned to coincide with Brown's 'crowning' but if nobody, including the terrorists, think Brown's foreign policy has changed then I don't see how you can make the assumption that we would be bombed anyway "coz they hate us, innit"

Tell me how often the UK was attacked by home-grown suicide bombers following the 2nd Gulf War in 1990/91?

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They don't say as their final words "free my _____ in _____" They say, "God is great" pull the trigger and murder people without warning or notice. Make no mistake, it's about god and its most definitely about a theological mindset which tells them to love death and causing death because they'll go to heaven killing westerners

Not quite sure what that mumbling in the first sentence was supposed to mean but you seem to be suggesting that these terrorists only have theological motivations for mounting these attacks, and no political motivation - is that what you think?

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A start might be convincing them that they have a legal right to vote, not a carte-blanc right to kill as a first alternative...

Ah yes, I can just see Gordon Brown addressing the nation now: "Muslims of Britain, I bring you a message, you do not have the right to kill innocent white people in this country, instead you are supposed to VOTE to make a difference"

Or do you think that's just bullshit Les?

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I might not have a piece of published paper to deem me an 'expert' but most likely neither do you.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just take exception when people make authoritive statements that I know for a fact is wrong, like the one you made about these terrorists having no political motivation.

For what its worth...
Why can't they just integrate with the rest of the UK without fuss?
It's not like the place isn't entirely un-accepting of outsiders, the Indian's, Italians, Greeks and many others who come from non-english speaking backgrounds are very much a part of the society and have enriched it with their presence.
So why haven't those from Islamic backgrounds done the same?
All they've done is retreat into secular communities which haven't exactly helped their public image when a small amount of their members of those openly pursue vendettas from the country they came from. I mean really, if you can't tolerate the country you migrate too, then it doesn't make sense to actually go there in the first place and even less sense to continue that line of social intolerance once you get there!

Don't force the tolerant, majority of society to bend to the whims of the marginal minority which chooses to be intolerant.
I will not, ever give up my moderate, democratic legal right to dress, do and behave as I am accorded within that countries normal behaviour, just on the off chance it offends some damn minority group. But the crying libertarians keep ignoring the fact that it's not just a case of feeling politically or socially isolated or marginalised which is causing this behaviour.
Its murder
Plain and simple murder under religious decree.

These are not classic terrorist attacks at all in the UK, during the 80s and 90's the IRA launched a lot of attacks at the UK and their civilian deaths over 25 years are statistically about the same as the damage which has happened since 2000-present.
Back then there where about 3.5mil with a small minority of angry Irish who didn't like the English government either, today the same form of intimidation and murder is being conducted by a little less than 2mil of the small minority of angry Muslims who do the same.
You can paint it anyway you want with technique, but these actual attacks only have secondary cause to terror and primarily designed to kill people.
Even the IRA had the gall to lob mortars into Downing street...

They are not a completely political motivation is what I think and they are firmly supported by the religious theocracy which endorses the killing of westerners.
Actual condemnation of this behaviour is at best very quiet on the eastern front, why isn't there a groundswell of condemnation from the Islamic clergy?

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Ah yes, I can just see Gordon Brown addressing the nation now: "Muslims of Britain, I bring you a message, you do not have the right to kill innocent white people in this country, instead you are supposed to VOTE to make a difference"

As someone who's not white, I'd like the address to include people of non-white heritage as well.
But I mean really, even my rather marginal status for personal-social choice of lifestyle, rather than cultural background which I can't do much about, is not grotesquely offended enough to the point where I must feel I have to pick up a rifle again and start blazing away to defend my civil liberties. Much less if I decided to move back to the UK
When I can, I vote and I certainly don't seem to have suffered overly much socially or economically at the hands of the evil christian white people which always seem to end up in charge of the show. I might not like the extreme chrisitian white minority much either, but I've not reached the point where I've had to kill any.
That however, I could unequivocally kiss goodbye in any country I lived in which was under majority Islamic law.

I take exception when my civil rights and otherwise moderate 'don't bother anyone' status is impinged upon by people who come from a minority following religious dogma handed down to them when they could quite easily be a part of the social landscape. But instead, face the prospect of having civil liberties curtailed because of angry young men being told by stupid old men, who are too stupid and intolerant to accept the fact that it's ok to be different in the west and you don't really need to start killing people wholesale just to get the point across they don't like our politicians, religions and behaviour being different to their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith For what its worth...

Second time I've said this now - all you (and others in other threads) have done so far is make (often false imo) observations and say what UK Muslims should do/be like. Well that's great. I personally think Muslims shouldn't be terrorists, I have written to Gordon Brown to let him know my excellent plan for solving the problem of British-born Islamic terrorists and I fully expect him to implement some kind of "Muslim's shouldn't be terrorists" policy in the coming few weeks. Then there will be no more terrorist attacks in the UK (I'll probably receive some kind of Knighthood but don't worry, I'll mention you in my speech!)

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm but sometimes I just love being a twat...

Anyway, my point is, it's all very well stating what you think Muslims should do and how they should act (despite your views being formed by only a tiny fraction of UK Muslims) but the problem is, how do we get them to do it? That's what I want you to tell me. I also want you to tell me what it is exactly you think Muslims should be doing. Should the areas they live in be emancipated with white "real" British people? Should they be forced to consume large amounts of alcohol against their religion? Should they attend football matches every saturday afternoon? Should their females get pregnant before they are 15?

What exactly are Muslims doing that you don't want them to do, and what exactly do you want them to do to make them more integrated?

And tell me how you would go about coercing Muslims to do the above...

Which part of-

quote:

All they've done is retreat into secular communities which haven't exactly helped their public image when a small amount of their members of those openly pursue vendettas from the country they came from. I mean really, if you can't tolerate the country you migrate too, then it doesn't make sense to actually go there in the first place and even less sense to continue that line of social intolerance once you get there!

Was too subtle for you to notice?

It's getting too late for this so I'm going to bed, if you really want to have some kind of blow by blow solution from me (you probably wouldn't like my rates which make solicitors look cheap by comparison) and I'd like to hear your thoughts on social integration of the muslim minority which doesn't involve them killing their adopted country's citizens.

You're out there banging the Labour drum for fun and profit these days, surely some of the slime ideas must have rubbed off on you by now to formulate at least a token opinion on the matter. I'm just a nasty ex-pat real estate developer living in the colonies after all...

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Originally posted by Lilith social integration of the muslim minority which doesn't involve them killing their adopted country's citizens

That's your problem. You view all the UK's Muslims as one harmonious group. Some Muslims committed acts of terrorism so you think the rest are the same.

I think you need to get out of thinking like that cos it's not useful to the debate cos it simply is not true. The VAST majority (and I mean 99.99999999%) of UK Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism and oppose it like any sane person would.

The problem is not the Muslim community as a whole but at tiny fraction of them that feel alienated from the society they live in and are striving for some kind of meaning to their lives. They are especially vulnerable to the brainwashing of (often foreign) radical Imams.

Views like yours, that all Muslims are terrorists in waiting, only adds to this problem...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Not quite sure what that mumbling in the first sentence was supposed to mean but you seem to be suggesting that these terrorists only have theological motivations for mounting these attacks, and no political motivation - is that what you think?

I think she met, you do not hear these dogs screaming out FREE TIBET!! When they blow themselves up. You do not here them shouting "No Wal-Mart in my town!!" No, what do you hear is..... ALLAH is Great!! Did the IRA, ETA or other terrorist organizations that we know of scream Allah?? No sir, they did not because the IRA, ETA and others were based on political motivations. They were civilized, they called in Not these dogs. They base their motives off of a Myth........ oh sure they throw in Palestine and so forth. But their view of you, me and every one that does not believe in their sick, ass back wards interpretation of that myth, killing as many inocents is looked at as if "its a good thing." all in the name of their god.

The day to day Muslim that just wants to live and raise a family needs to help root this growing trend of hate and death that not only has infested the down trodden, but has taken roots in the educated; as in the example of the Dr's of this failed attack. What this is showing is that due to their isolated view that the rest of the world is evil, the new immigrant does not have the chance to become a part of their new country, and by doing so, the flood gates are opened to the real evil that is radical islam....

We as the new hosts need to also not allow these people to become isolated, programs and mandatory classes should be given to new comers, if they refuse to take the courses then they are not allowed. The Country also needs to make every effort for these courses are taught with all the respect.

Why did the UK not get suicide bombed following/during the 1990/91 Gulf War?

Why do you talk about "immigrants" when these people were born in the UK?

If Political Islam is not "politically" motivated, then why is it called POLITICAL Islam?

Do you even know what Political Islam is? And the history of it?

The fact that you don't seem to have a clue about, or an answer to, Islamic terrorism begs the question why I should listen to any of your opinions.

You have also failed to answer the question I have asked on a number of occasions now - what do you propose we do to deal with the problem of home-grown Islamic militancy?

You have told me what the UK should do with new immigrants (funnily enough this is what the UK is already doing, but I wouldn't expect you to have know that), but new immigrants aren't the problem - home-grown radicals are the problem, now tell me what we are supposed to do about them...

Well I kinda agree with both of you. George I agree they are politically motivated, they want the UK to be Muslim.

And Lilith I agree that (if I get you right, and has been stated by many in the UK) "multi-culturism has failed" to use another term.

I would also say that just saying "the majority of Muslims are against it though" is underestimating the gulf between the Muslim society and the rest of us.

Some quotes:

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In the survey of 1,003 Muslims by the polling company Populus through internet and telephone questionnaires, nearly 60% said they would prefer to live under British law, while 37% of 16 to 24-year-olds said they would prefer sharia law

...

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Nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-olds believed that those converting to another religion should be executed

>LINK(Guardian)<

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One in eight young Muslims said they admired groups such as al-Qa'eda that "are prepared to fight the West"

>LINK(Telegraph)<

Now I'm all for integration and believe you can have any religion you want but... those 1 in 8 if they are found to preach hate should be treated just like any racist who does the same.

I think to an extent the damage is done the demographic shows younger Muslims are the worst it can only snowball. How do we solve it? Who knows government can't really affect change, they are religion and media driven.

I mean British people have tried to integrate them look at the outcry over the "racism" in Big Brother against Shilpa whatever her name (don't watch it..) is. I think we should start asking for a little give rather than take from them. A bit of real support from their leaders, no caveats. A bit of conformance to our values, I mean they even run their own "courts" now!

All that is going to happen (as it is already) is a reaction against them by non-muslims. They will lead themselfs into segregation if they arn't careful.

___________________
If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

Last edited by Dervish on Jul-04-2007 at 17:53

Well I do think they would like the UK to be Muslim (just like any religious person would like the country they reside in to be governed the way their religion says a country should be governed) but I think there is a more apparent and immediate political aim and that is to change British foreign policy.

As for the 1/8 that admire groups like al-Qaida. It doesn't actually say they themselves are prepared to suicide bomb the UK and I suspect the vast majority of those 1/8 would not be prepared to do that. The reason I say that is if you look back during the 70s, during the "golden age" of international terrorism, look at the admiration the youth of the time had for the Marxist terrorist groups such as the PLO, IRA, Red Hand Faction, Beider Meinhof, etc. They all romanticised about those groups as fighting for what they believed in, but the vast majority would never have actually gone and joined them. It's something that affects the youth. Those youth with political ideas (like students and, hey, all of us on here) tend to rebel against the status quo and the elite that run things. That's why they fantasised and "agreed" with the Marxist terrorist groups and I suspect that is the same reason those in the Guardian poll gave the answers they did.

The problem we need to overcome is to make the ideology and methods of Political Islam unattractive and yes, in a large part that will have to come from the leaders of these Islamic communities in the UK. But they are limited in what they can achieve. Their job is to make their point of view more attractive than the Jihadists. But when the UK bombs a Middle Eastern country for what is seen as dubious reasons, when the UK is seen as favouring Israel over the Palestinians and when "normal" British citizens are seen to be against Muslims (as is the prevalent view by a lot of members on this forum) then you can see that they face an impossible task to convince the Muslim youth attracted by Political Islam's message that their moderate view is correct, and the Jihadists who try to brainwash them have such an easy task the way things are.

So what is the solution? Well we are obviously in a mess. We cannot alter the fact that we invaded Iraq, it's done. But I did ask a question a number of times on this forum: why did the UK not get suicide bombed following the Gulf War of 1990/91? The answer is simple. it is because it was seen by the world as being a just war. The Afghanistan War, following 9/11 was seen by the world in a similar light. So one solution in future conflicts against an Islamic country (ANY country) is to make damn sure it is a just conflict and that it is supported by the international community. Next obviously we need to devote more effort to a more even handed approach to the Israel/Palestine conflict as this is a major motivator to radical Islamists. Currently we are seen as taking the American view and favouring Israel (altho I would tend to disagree but then the UK has done nothing to suggest otherwise). We need to support the EU fully and put pressure on Israel as much as we have on the Palestinians to resolve the conflict. Then finally we need to do something to counter this Islamophobia that drives a wedge between the "normal" UK citizens and the British Muslims. Maybe it's not the Muslims that need to learn the British way of life, but the British that need to learn about British Muslims in the UK?

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Originally posted by George Smiley That's your problem. You view all the UK's Muslims as one harmonious group. Some Muslims committed acts of terrorism so you think the rest are the same. I think you need to get out of thinking like that cos it's not useful to the debate cos it simply is not true. The VAST majority (and I mean 99.99999999%) of UK Muslims have nothing to do with terrorism and oppose it like any sane person would. The problem is not the Muslim community as a whole but at tiny fraction of them that feel alienated from the society they live in and are striving for some kind of meaning to their lives. They are especially vulnerable to the brainwashing of (often foreign) radical Imams. Views like yours, that all Muslims are terrorists in waiting, only adds to this problem...

Actually views like hers are shared by a lot of people that question why, after decades of 'assimulation', all the assurances made by the Muslim community sound like lip service and people are tired of it. Why is it such a burden in asking to help in controlling your own religion (or at least HELPING).

Even in North America, CAIR's own membership has fallen to a few thousand after 9/11 because even their own membership is sick and tired of the lipservice.
There is a lot of talking with no decisive, quantifiable solutions coming from that group (CAIR) in particular and until then, they're going to be continually singled out until then.

There is a huge disconnect between what people on the outside of the Muslim community are being told and actual things happening within the Muslim community when it comes to dealing with the radicals.
It's pretty sad when we can expect 'denial of conduct' letters coming out like clockwork with absolutely no discernible solutions or involvement.
That's not to say they shouldn't be making public denouncements however it's really getting tired and moot; people want action, not talk.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r people want action, not talk.

But I don't understand what exactly you want Muslim leaders or Western governments to do?

Do you want Muslim leaders to grass on radical Muslims and shop them to the police? The problem with that is one these moderate Muslim leaders will then be looked on suspiciously and two you assume that moderate Muslim leaders actually have the knowledge of these secretive groups. What else do you want them to do? Condemn these attacks more than they are already? Do you want them to be more convincing when spreading their moderate vision of Islam? As I said above that is an almost impossible task to combat the Jihadist's message when confronted with the actions of the West against Muslim countries. Tell me what else you want Muslim leaders to do and how they would go about it cos to be honest mate, I'm stumped, I can't work out what you and everyone else wants them to do that they are not doing already...

As for Western governments, what do you recommend they do to counter this threat? Do you think they should pursue a more ethical foreign policy as I suggested above? Do you even think the West's policy towards the Middle East is even a contributing factor to this home-grown threat? Or Israel and Palestine? Do you think the government should force British Muslims to live in white neighbourhoods? Should British Muslims be forced to attend some kind of British citizenship classes to teach them how to be "proper" British citizens? Do you think British Muslims should be expelled from the UK?

Please tell me in your next post what you want Muslim leaders to do and what you want the British government to do to counter this threat...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Actually views like hers are shared by a lot of people that question why

Yea well most people only learn about Islamic terrorism when they switch on the news or read some agenda ridden tabloid so you'll have to forgive me if I don't pay much attention to what "a lot of people" think and stick to my own researched and educated opinions thank you very much...