quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker So you would say that being "optimistic" would make the loss of one's father the most enjoyable it could be... Interesting to say the least. Optimism at it's best you'd suppose.

The loss of a loved one is a bad experience, but it could be varying degrees of bad. As enjoyable as it may be, it is still unenjoyable. I am just arguing that in the varying degrees of "badness" having an optimistic attitude that "things will get better" will enable you to make the best of the situation.

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Where Are The Tunes?
Good things happen to good people

I've tried to avoid situational specifics in my replies - because I believe that theories/ideologies should transcend specific events and outcomes...

But with your WTC example - you've provided a specific, so let me counter with a less-specific one of my own that we might be able to build your system upon:

The pessimist says: The outcome is highly unlikely to be possible. Almost no matter what happens the end result will be negative, uncomfortable, akin to failure. Effort and exertion will likely not matter because influencing the outcome is near impossible (the outcome will not be positive).

The optimist says: The outcome is highly likely and will probably be possible. Odds are in my favor that the outcome will be positive, rewarding, a win. Effort and exertion matter - but the outcome will probably be in my favor or be possible as a matter of approach (the outcome will be positive as a matter of expectation).

So the danger that I speak of is as such: once the objectivity of a subject is lost - the pessimistic or optimistic influence immediately influences ones input into the outcome.

The pessimist decides that their influence can't effectively impact external factors and the optimist believes that their (perceived) influence has already effectively impacted external factors (by the mere optimistic approach/attitude).

Objectivism, or, realizing that things "just are" and then accepting that one has a true internal locus of control impacts outcomes far beyond a pessimistic or optimistic frame.

Positive/optimistic thinking is a valuable emotional tool to keep spirits high and hope for the best. HOWEVER (and it is a BIG however) it often results in under-action/under-responsibility/under-decisiveness when it matters most.

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- rabbit.joker [funny¿rabbit] | www.rabbitjoker.com |www.ddtt.org

Dark Dirty Tech Tribal. | Hands in air (trance) and feet on the floor (house).

Have you read Atlas Shrugged, RJ?

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie Have you read Atlas Shrugged, RJ?

No, but it has been recommended to me (many, many times).

I've avoided it as I've tend to be fonder of non-fictional approaches to philosophy (and not to mention the time required to read 1000 pages is... significant).

___________________
- rabbit.joker [funny¿rabbit] | www.rabbitjoker.com |www.ddtt.org

Dark Dirty Tech Tribal. | Hands in air (trance) and feet on the floor (house).

quote:

Originally posted by rabbitjoker No, but it has been recommended to me (many, many times). I've avoided it as I've tend to be fonder of non-fictional approaches to philosophy (and not to mention the time required to read 1000 pages is... significant).

Oh man, well I'm reading it right now and it makes my brain horny (for lack of better words, lol).

I didn't expect it to be so appealing. Honestly it makes me feel giddy at times while I read it.

I dunno..I hear what you're saying....but if it ever comes into your path you should read it! I think a book like this shouldn't be forced.

I am digging this thread. A few random thoughts:

(1) If somone asked, I would generally describe myself as an optimistic person, both at work and in my private life.

(2) I view optimism as a tool.

(3) I tend to employ skepticism as a tool more regularly than I do optimism, especially at work.

(4) I rarely have confidence in overly optimistic people.

(5) Many of my greatest accomplishments can be linked to my intense response to feelings of anger or frustration, not optimism.

As I am going through some of these responses and making some of my own my own ideas are becoming more clear.

I think there is a difference between someone who is overly optimistic, which is the type of person Andrew and RJ both worry would suffer from inaction...

...and a type of person who has hope. In my original last paragraph this is what I mentioned, and having heard your concerns this is what I am drawn back to. Hope in the future can act not as a deterrent to action, but a motivation for it. In those moments when it feels like you can't go on, hope is what gives you the strength to do it anyways.

___________________

Check out more of my ramblings at:
http://thedailyuniverse.blogspot.com/

Where Are The Tunes?
Good things happen to good people

quote:

Originally posted by shanny Hope in the future can act not as a deterrent to action, but a motivation for it. In those moments when it feels like you can't go on, hope is what gives you the strength to do it anyways.

Is it really hope though? Do you think optimism exists on it's own? Or do you think it's a product of fear?

I think there's very few people in the world who are true optimists. You can't expect everyone to rationalize the same way. It's naive and unrealistic.

quote:

Originally posted by Engine9 see the cheese not the holes /end thread

LOL

No. That piece that Shanny out up shouldn't be summarized. Take time to read it and reflect. It's very important. Your attitude towards life is the most important thing.

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Some dance to remember, some dance to forget.

Thanks Shanny,

I think reading this was very helpful for me. Having hope or thinking positive has always been hard for me....especially when things in my life are going wrong....

I know being negative has gotten me nowhere, in fact has made things muc h worse for me other the last 6 yrs.

Having self confidence is something I lack very much...in so many areas, and I truely believe now more than ever I will never be happy in life until I am happy with who I am. No one else can make this happen but myself. I have relied on others all my life to fill my life with happiness, and it has never worked. I tend to blame myself for a lot of things, but in all reality these are all life lessons, weither I like it or not. The only choice I have is to move on, and somehow find true inner happiness with myself.

This thread put things in a different light for me today. I will probably go back and read it from time and time again.

Thanks again

___________________
"Like a song everlasting, time dances on."
"So while you struggle to catch the rhythm with your feet, ask yourself..can u really DANCE2MABEAT"

I find this essay very moving as it has obtains a lot of my similar beliefs. Anyone who knows me well can vouch that for the most part I have lived my life with these exact guidelines, maybe not to the utmost degree but in a small regard.

I have always been very optimistic with everything I do. This strategy to life is not one I sat there and anticipated, it came natural to me.

With this set of perspectives I realized that even when something happened that wasn’t to my advantage, I was able to roll with the punches and let it slide. In actuality, I should have been upset. In my world, it was meant to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by shanny Act only in accordance with what you believe to be truest to yourself and you can never go wrong. It is only when external things come in to play and begin changing the way that you operate that you truthfully get into trouble.

As a person whom, nothing bad ever happened because it was always looked at in a positive light. I in the past let someone into my life whom, I trusted with everything. To make a long story short I let that person steal a part of me. I let them affect me and change the way I operate. I was no longer “true to myself” and I was the most unhappy person. I didn’t recognize that this was in fact happening. It took me a very long time to break free from this, and an even longer time to regain myself.

I now know what it feels like to question what I do, to observe what others think about me, to not feel confident in my own skin. As only starting to feel this at 20, when I had never felt this even in my awkward teenage stages, it was scary. These are the years I was supposed to be growing into my skin and being confident within myself.

I am living proof of being the person whom had utmost confidence within all my actions and was never deeply affected by negatives around me. And then letting someone influence my beliefs and change my guidelines and genetic makeup of who I was to question my actions and thought processes. I will be the first to say that I was WAY more happy living in my optimistic world.
But then I question would I have ever let this person affect me so deeply had I never been so blind with my optimism.

___________________
Everything happens for a reason

quote:

Originally posted by MissK I find this essay very moving as it has obtains a lot of my similar beliefs. Anyone who knows me well can vouch that for the most part I have lived my life with these exact guidelines, maybe not to the utmost degree but in a small regard. I have always been very optimistic with everything I do. This strategy to life is not one I sat there and anticipated, it came natural to me. With this set of perspectives I realized that even when something happened that wasn’t to my advantage, I was able to roll with the punches and let it slide. In actuality, I should have been upset. In my world, it was meant to happen. As a person whom, nothing bad ever happened because it was always looked at in a positive light. I in the past let someone into my life whom, I trusted with everything. To make a long story short I let that person steal a part of me. I let them affect me and change the way I operate. I was no longer “true to myself” and I was the most unhappy person. I didn’t recognize that this was in fact happening. It took me a very long time to break free from this, and an even longer time to regain myself. I now know what it feels like to question what I do, to observe what others think about me, to not feel confident in my own skin. As only starting to feel this at 20, when I had never felt this even in my awkward teenage stages, it was scary. These are the years I was supposed to be growing into my skin and being confident within myself. I am living proof of being the person whom had utmost confidence within all my actions and was never deeply affected by negatives around me. And then letting someone influence my beliefs and change my guidelines and genetic makeup of who I was to question my actions and thought processes. I will be the first to say that I was WAY more happy living in my optimistic world. But then I question would I have ever let this person affect me so deeply had I never been so blind with my optimism.

I have some FABULOUS news for you my darling and, at the risk of doing the "I am older than you" thing, I can say, without doubt, that the optimism comes back with full force.

I lost all my optimism for about 2 years from the age of 20-22 and it crippled me emotionally. Every time I would pick myself up and dust off, something horrific would happen again. "Can it get any worse?" would always be a thought in my head and invariably it could AND it did for that period of time - trust me, any optimism I had at that point depleted considerably. After this prolonged period was over, it took from the age of 22-23 to start growing my optimism again and from 23-now to continue to increase and nurture it. With this lucidity comes many benefits along with a renewed respect for the optimism you have. It's precious.

Self assuredness is something that few people ever really attain. It isn't confidence or arrogance, it is a quiet and unassuming knowledge that you are a good person (everyone's defintion is different - for me it is kind, considerate, thoughtful, generous and loyal - the bad side to it is that I expect others to be the same as me - my negative aspect of my personality is the stubbornness that comes from expecting everyone in my life to live up to my expectations and not deviate from them which, in turn, can mean copious amounts of disappointment) and that you live your life to the best of your ability for both you and the people around you.

Self assuredness and optimism go hand-in-hand as becoming self assured brings with it the knowledge that you have been able to grow as a person and accept the things you can't/won't change about yourself so others can too.

You'll get there too! Promise!!

In short, optimism is something that has to be nurtured and cared for and encouraged and projected - don't take it for granted and get rid of anyone in your life that doesn't make you feel optimistic. Leave the pessimists to themselves. Bright and sunny people FTW.

___________________
Be the best person you can be. Always.

Last edited by English Rachel on Jul-23-2007 at 18:42