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Originally posted by erdega Finally someone to recognize it , Cia is a terrorist organization that was repsponsible for all the civilian targeting in Serbia and later Iraq and they do sponsor and train terrorist groups. They have global reach and are bent on world domination. Hopefully it won't stay on words only and someone will stop their rampage and put them in place

Serbia was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bosnia so shut up.

Here's some proof for ya that some countries in the Middle East DO ask for western intervention:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

And you might want to read about incidents that arent b/c of the West:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre

Notice how Arafat was detested by both Assad, president of Syria, and by Nasser (president of Egypt). Notice how the king of Jordan repeatedly asked for American assistance, and even got Israel to do some of the dirty work for him.
There are loads of complicated problems in the Middle East that have little to do with the West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad
Syria's was a very unstable country with lots coups until the early 70s. Notice how the Muslim Brotherhood tried to assasinate Assad on more then one occasion.

BTW, here's some information about the current president of Syria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad

Here's my favorite part from there:
"Until he became President, Bashar's only formal political role was as the head of the Syrian Computer Society, which was mainly in charge of introducing the Internet to Syria in 2001"

The CIA is technically a terrorist organisation, I think just about everyone knows this...

The difference being that it is official and has impunity from the US government.

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Originally posted by Krypton You learn what self-determination really means. You support so strongly our commercial interests even when our interests collide with other nations on their territory. Please inform yourself on the philosophy of our founding fathers, international law, and then ask yourself why we have forsaken these principles. Everything ain't hunky dory in America, people need to wake the fuck up..

so you've given up on defending Castro and now you invoke the Founding Fathers. weak sauce.

the Founding Fthers would have sent the Navy to blockade Castro if he'd have pulled that shit in 1800.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby The CIA is technically a terrorist organisation, I think just about everyone knows this...

The Central Intelligence of the United States has had its fair share of fuck ups, and I'm not the biggest fan of the clown running this country (Bush), but the CIA is far from being a terrorist organization.
It's helped stop numerous attacks on America, and on our allies across the world. That's a fact that I think just about everyone knows.

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Originally posted by Q5echo the Founding Fthers would have sent the Navy to blockade Castro if he'd have pulled that shit in 1800.

Damn it Q5, your responses rock!

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Originally posted by CHRles Here's some proof for ya that some countries in the Middle East DO ask for western intervention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

"The supreme authorities of all recognized nations. Humanitarian aid and economic sanctions are the highest means of helping nations in civil wars and humanitarian crises started by the government. But never should we invade or threaten a country because of what happens inside. Only unless the supreme authority asks us to bring troops as peacekeepers. Diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy. Always continually offer aid to these regions but they have to ask for it. We should not be forcing it on them militarily."

The king asks us to enter so we did. You think I'm against this? l...o...l...

Did Iraq ask us to enter. No. Did Iran ask us to choose their ruler (shah). No.

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And you might want to read about incidents that arent b/c of the West: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre

You might want to not change the original argument which I think you are trying to argue against. The reason there is islamic hatred of the west all over the world is because of western "incidents" and actions that they view as a violation of Muslim sovereignty. So, by you bringing up a Syrian incident,sorry, but Osama is not citing Syria when he and millions of muslims around the world believe that every muslim should fight america.

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Notice how Arafat was detested by both Assad, president of Syria, and by Nasser (president of Egypt). Notice how the king of Jordan repeatedly asked for American assistance, and even got Israel to do some of the dirty work for him. There are loads of complicated problems in the Middle East that have little to do with the West. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad Syria's was a very unstable country with lots coups until the early 70s. Notice how the Muslim Brotherhood tried to assasinate Assad on more then one occasion.

AND? What's your point? Are you dumbing down western interference in the region by referencing regional politics??? TRY AGAIN...

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BTW, here's some information about the current president of Syria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad Here's my favorite part from there: "Until he became President, Bashar's only formal political role was as the head of the Syrian Computer Society, which was mainly in charge of introducing the Internet to Syria in 2001"

Is this supposed to be a critique of Syrian politics? I really don't get you..

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Originally posted by Q5echo so you've given up on defending Castro and now you invoke the Founding Fathers. weak sauce. the Founding Fthers would have sent the Navy to blockade Castro if he'd have pulled that shit in 1800.

I've dictated principles and how they should be implied. You spew out rhetoric and hawkishness. By what doctrine should we tell the Cubans who their leader should be? Let the damn Cubans decide their affairs and keep your filthy neocon hands off it.

And this just goes to show you don't give a fuck about what this country was founded on. You just want to see America dominate those who don't conform.

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Originally posted by CHRles Serbia was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bosnia so shut up.

America has killed millions of people in the balkans and middle east and millions more into refugees and they are still losers who can only fight defenseless people.

It's simple really. It's supposed to show you that rather then criticizing the US, maybe you should step back a minute and look at whats been happening.
You say the US enforces terror on the region. Look at how many of the Middle East's own leaders have done far worse, sometimes b/c they've been fighting a lot of their homegrown terrorist organizations.
It's not b/c of Israel or the US that many of these countries are fucked up. It's b/c they've had leaders who were too hungry for power, who collaborated with the Soviets, and who ignored their own people. The thing is, these Middle East leaders started bigger thhen life cult of personalities for themselves to ensure that everyone but them would be responsible for problems.
Again, it's much easier to blame the super rich United States, or a small Jewish state, for your woes.

That is the message I'm trying to get across here.

I think George W Bush is a clown, and its sad we dont have Gore or Kerry as our presidents. Still, I'll take him anyday over someone like Assad, who has next to no political experience (Bush was "at least" governor of Texas), or the way Assad treats Lebanon.

The connection to Bin Laden is that Osama as that fuckin bastard of all bastards will critize the US all day but not so much the rulers of the Middle East.
That's the connection and it's an obvious one.

As for Sadam, we never would have even supported him in the 80s if it wasnt for the fact that Iran took our embassy hostage. Carter, a pretty weak president, actually wanted to have formal relations with the Revolutionary Guards (like you do). However the Shah was sick with cancer and wanted to fly to America since we have some of the best hospitals in the world (not so terrible now, are we?). When his visa was granted, the barbaric Revolutionary Guards stormed the embassy, and took our people hostage. For over a year. Shame on you for saying they deserved it. Even if they were gathering information again the Revolutionaries they didnt deserve it

Sadam's profile in the Middle East was pretty favorable when he was fighting Iran - most Arabs weren't rooting for the Iranians.
When Sadam invaded Kuwait all that changed. We, the United States, moreso then any other country, stepped in to help Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. while the people of Kuwait know we had economical (read oil) interests to help them, they were grateful nontheless for our help.
When we invaded Iraq the second time part of the reason was to keep an eye on Iran, and to take Sadam down once and for all. The thing is, at the time Iran was making progress towards the west and had a relatively moderate leader in office, Khatami (I think that's how you spell it).
Well, the Iranian people voted for more hardline fundamental conservatives back in office. These people spewed nothing but hateful rhetorics towards the West, rather then trying to prove to the West that they're not part of the axis of evil.
The suckers in Iran alienated the US more then ever, as well as France, the UK, and there's stronger resentment towards Iran from officials in Germany (who understand the situation much moreso then most ordinary citizens in Europe).

The countries that don't have a problem with Iran obtaining nuclear power are usually third world countries that depend on Iranian oil.

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Originally posted by erdega America has killed millions of people in the balkans and middle east and millions more into refugees and they are still losers who can only fight defenseless people.

Aside from a web of lies about America, whats your views of Milosevic?