Sorry excuse me I thought this was the COR... passing though.

Surely the cornerstone of this (current) debate is the definition of intelligence? Which is a hell of a big subject....bigger even than jennypie's dumps...

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

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Originally posted by Omega_M Even so, what difference does it make whether people use personal goals or societal compulsions to abstain from doing things ? There are many people who cannot exercise the type of abstinence that requires self control even if it is driven by social compulsions. How hard is it for a chain smoker to quit ? Or for a meth addict to give up his drug ? They must choose intentional abstinence, if they want to live a healthy life (or even stay alive). There are many instances like this where self control does not have anything to do with the society. It's not really as rare as you think.

Something that is socially-inspired and influenced can be controlled by society as well. Of course there are no truly isolated frames of thought out there - everything is an amalgam of self and society, but if social pressures were what lead to an addiction or a need to find oneself in the first place, and can also be the path and the influence by which the means or solution are met, where does that truly place the individual?

I am saying that self-control, in an overwhelming majority of cases, is an illusion; a prescription of society. I am not saying this is a bad thing, as I think that would be a very, very limited consideration, I am just saying that there is far more at play than merely setting one's mind to do something. I think that, through realization of this, it's possible to gain a very significant degree of empathy for fellow people, animals and maybe all living things. I know this is really idealistic viewpoint, quite contrary to my typical cynicism, but I also hold that every individual is weak. Everyone.

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Fundamentally, monks really don't care about social structures. Their goals are neither ego based nor driven by society (unlike ours). They may form their own groups for praying or chanting. In the end however, they meditate alone for a purely personal goal of enlightenment. You can argue that the person is striving for personal greatness or respect in a society, but I don't think an enlightened person is searching for this type of recognition.

Ideally, yes. How could you ever truly tell what latent social control has a grasp of people though? My point is that individualism and society are quite inextricable - that one has a definite hold over the other at all times. Perhaps there is a threshold one can pass, and this realization is all that we know of enlightenment, but true oneness with everything has exclusions? I guess I do not understand this. I'll meditate on it for a while.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally posted by Darkarbiter Not only is this allmost certainly bullshit from how hard this would be to test but you kind of suggested classical makes you more intelligent. I do not count 15 minutes as "more intelligent" (permanently). Sad music makes you sad? Sad is a mood. Mood is a temporary change of personality... and personality like many things can form habits. So listening to lots of sad music makes you a sad person. Who doesn't allready know sad music makes you sad? I'm not sure however that intelligence works the same way and besides... wtf were they testing this against? Is this the best classical piece ever v.s. a random pop song for a classical listener? Or what? I know that 140 bpm+ stuff makes me better at maths (wheras ambient is better for creative/social stuff... but thats a bit different). I'd really like to see how they determine this temporary increase of intelligence. Methinks it's comepletely bullshit. After all if music is mostly mathematical... surely a synthesizer would increase your intelligence more? So in short: Does a temporary increase of intelligence sometimes form a habit(I.E. from listening to music)? and... WTF were the test ground on this musical test? Maybe it's mostly determined by BPM... maybe it's mostly determine by how much you like it... regardless I highly doubt Classical is the only music genre that can do anything as good as Classical. How can you test permanent intelligence changes? You'd have to force someone to listen to only classical and someone else to listen to a specific music genre (otherwise... say perhaps variety doesn't make you as intelligent as one music genre?). Not only that... but music affects mood which IMO affects personality. How are you going to test a permanent change of intelligence without outside factors... including personality changes(maybe they feel more like a certain group of people... they hang out with them and they do more or less memory intensive stuff together)?

With all due respect, your opinions don't really invalidate the research studies. And yes, it has been suggested that certain forms of music are more likely to be make learning more difficult, rather than less. It's 4:00 in the morning though and I had a lousy night, so I don't realy intend to research this.

There are ways to measure how much the brain is working and functioning. There are ways to determine if that is an accurate determination.

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Originally posted by Fibonacci With all due respect, your opinions don't really invalidate the research studies. And yes, it has been suggested that certain forms of music are more likely to be make learning more difficult, rather than less. It's 4:00 in the morning though and I had a lousy night, so I don't realy intend to research this. There are ways to measure how much the brain is working and functioning. There are ways to determine if that is an accurate determination.

Jeez, nice bump.

Ok, as I said before:

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Originally posted by Sushipunk I would be quite interested to read up on the kind of statistical methodology they used to reach their conclusions.

Do you have links to the original studies? "Were they ever published?" would be another question.

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There is some indication that the so called "Mozart Effect" may be true. It has also been suggested that certain types of music may help in lowering seizure activity in epilepsy patients.

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"It is suggested that music with a high degree of long-term periodicity... would resonate within the brain to decrease seizure activity and to enhance spatial-temporal performance

This is from an article in the "Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine".

http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/full/94/4/170

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Download and review ! Omega_M - In the Mix (Beta Version)

Originally posted by twilightki : It feels like something you'd listen to at 4 in the morning, or listen to in your car while you're going in a tunnel.

I call them haters.

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Originally posted by justin I call them haters.

I can appreciate it... I can listen to it... But I'm certainly not a member of the classicaladdict.com forums!

everything im not made everything i am.