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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, because christianity is about jesus!?

EXACTLY PKC. I believe these guys are heretics.

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no.

YES!

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not sure who haggy is but yes i have seen his ilk advocating israel, and some even calling for a nuclear war in the middle east to bring about armageddon. but no, these people do not pull the strings behind washington's foreign policy. such a view, in my opinion, is retarded, without evidence and only goes further to cement my opinion of you as some wacko conspiracy theorist who has found a new conspiracy of the week.

Evidence? Are you serious? There OBVIOUSLY is a faction inside the government which protects Israel from all scrutiny. This is not a wacko conspiracy theory. This is reality. Have you ever examined the US voting record on the Security Council regarding Israel? For decades, the US has vetoed vote after vote denouncing Israeli crimes.

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eh? most societies prohibit narcotics.

Has it worked?

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oh, so it wasnt for WMD, or oil, or strategic interests. now its for spreading democracy. so you buy their excuse now do you? and for fucks sake, can we, even for a minute extend past your mypoic view of history and examine something OTHER than the bush administration? your government is older than that if you've never bothered to pay attention. governments and policies are transient, stop trying to paint your entire history of government with the same bush brush, its illogical and immature.

WTF are you talking about!? You never heard the administration state, "We're going to liberate the Iraqi's and bring them democracy."?? You can't be serious. . .

I also don't recall Reagan or Clinton or Nixon occupying Baghdad. It was the Bush admin, so to try to say I'm just another Bush bashing fanatic really means nothing because the action was perpetrated by that regime!!

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christ, who fucking cares? neither does china or russia or the UK or france. why not bark about them for awhile? - because there isnt some attractive juvenile conspiracy in relation to china and russia, so youre far less interested

Who cares? If we are to have any semblance of international law and order, don't you think ALL countries should be scrutinized EQUALLY under the law? Wow, dude, that's really scary...

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right. so Arabs and Muslims and Jews all baked eachother pies and played songs prior to the Partition Plan? ...not because Jews were considered beastly animals since, i don't know, the 7th century? did you say you went to college?

Another pointless Q post. . .

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Originally posted by Krypton Why does it matter what government we're talking about here? Every country should be subject to international law equally.

of course, i am not defending israel's previous activities, and i am a firm believer in nuclear disarmament. which is why i think the focus should be on iran and not allowing them to have to bomb, rather than concerning israel who has possessed the weapons for decades and never used them or threatened to use them. and they are only subject to internation law if they've signed the nuclear proliferation treaty, have they? i dont know off the top of my head.

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Originally posted by Krypton According to the NIE report, Iran shut down it's nuclear weapons program in 2003. The Bush admin's case against Iran wouldn't hold up for 5 minutes in a courtroom.

so what? that's a good thing assuming the information is accurate. how should that change our opinion concerning nuclear weapons and iran? they've apparently suspended their program - that's great news. perhaps their display of "good will" will be rewarded by the international community.

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Originally posted by Krypton Israel violated international law, therefore making them a rogue state. It does not matter how conformed Israel is to western democracy.

that's not what makes a rogue state. if that was the measure then every nation around the globe would be rogue. from wiki

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Rogue state is a term applied by some international theorists to states considered threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction. In the last six months of the Clinton administration, the term "rogue state" was temporarily replaced with the term "state of concern," however, the Bush administration has returned to the earlier term. The U.S. government perceives the threat posed by these states as justifying its foreign policy and military initiatives, as in the case of anti-ballistic missile programs, which are held to be grounded in the concern that these states will not be deterred by the certainty of retaliation.

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Originally posted by Krypton This is alarming, but then again, there is no evidence to say Iran has a nuclear weapons program, unlike Israel where there is 100% proof of an illegal program.

it is interesting to note your asymmetrical skepticism. why is israel nuclear program "100% proof"? what evidence do you actually have? or are you just relying on information already available, the same way certain government's analyse iran's program?

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Originally posted by Krypton Oh, so they like death and destruction as a pasttime right? Come on man! Look at the economic/geopolitical of the region. Autocratic regimes, economic poverty, and the question of what to do with the failed state of Palestine. If you don't understand the mind of a jihadist, I strongly suggest you study up on why they fight. It's not just for fun, I can tell you that!

which is all israel's fault? there would be plenty of strife in the middle east without israel being there. israel just gives them a unified target currently, they would be blowing each other up in its absence. hamas & fatah for a recent example.

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Originally posted by Krypton Depending on where you stand, this is not 100% true. Israel has already destroyed the Palestineans ability to form a state.

oh, the palestinians haven't had any influence on the disintegration of the state of course! their decision to fight the 1948 annexation and the offer of a two-state solution has had no bearing on the current state of affairs at all!

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Originally posted by Krypton It's the OCCUPATION. Iran does not OCCUPY any other nation does it?

iran dont need to "occupy" countries when it has its proxy agents that do.

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Originally posted by Krypton Also guys, telling me to open my eyes, and that I'm narrow minded will only you this. . . because I am putting 100% in trying to understand why things are the way they are, so forgive me for coming to conclusions which you disagree with, but I didn't just pull all this out of my ass. There is something really wrong with the entire picture, and it certainly isn't all because of a bunch of crazy Islamists, though I won't minimalize their impact.

im not saying its all the jihadists fault. israel is as much (if not moreso) to blame.

But your one-eyed approach is full of naivete as if iran is a wonderful nation or islamic extremism is a result of the israeli state.

your insistance that the support of israel is a religious notion still hasnt been substantiated by any evidence.

i have no problems with people bashing israel, as long as i think its a fair bashing. bash israel all your want on its crimes against humanity, and its occupation of palestine. but dont blur that message with some nonsense over iran being badly treated in comparison in regards to nuclear weapons. israel has never been a threat to the region in terms of its nuclear arsenal, cant say the same for iran.

israel has nuclear weapons, they shouldn't have, but what can we do? iran doesn't have nuclear weapons, we should do everything we can to prevent them from doing so. what's the problem?

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Originally posted by Q5echo it's the truth. some very honest, smart and non-religious people take it very seriously Iran having nuclear strike capability. deal with it however you want but the fact remains that on an Inter-nation cooperative level Iran and only Iran remains untrustworthy for anything less than complete and total transpancy.

Listen Q, I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons. They should have as much transparency as any other country should have, but my dissent comes from the reality of the situation which is that there is a double standard going on here, and it's not fair. This unfairness will always result in pissed off people who are more than glad to join militant movements to fight against this "oppression" as they understand it.

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They should, and in this case they are. Israel is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; Iran is.

Hmm, didn't know that Lebez...

Well so, Israel operates completely outside of international law. How much better !?!?

Israel possessing nuclear weapons will only encourage more Middle Easterns regime to try to acquire weapons of their own. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 51/41 also calls for a nuclear free Middle East. Now Israel has stated they would bomb Iranian nuclear facilties if the US doesn't. How compliant do you think the Israeli's would be to ANY international agreement? And we here are expecting Iran to be fully compliant 100%, while giving Israel the benefit of the doubt. Hypocrisy.

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Originally posted by Krypton EXACTLY PKC. I believe these guys are heretics.

i think you'll find most US christians are heretics.

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Originally posted by Krypton Evidence? Are you serious? There OBVIOUSLY is a faction inside the government which protects Israel from all scrutiny. This is not a wacko conspiracy theory. This is reality. Have you ever examined the US voting record on the Security Council regarding Israel? For decades, the US has vetoed vote after vote denouncing Israeli crimes.

and this "faction" "inside" the government has been able to maintain that influence all through the decades. its not that the US is a close strategic ally of israel do you think? can't remember the US voting against britain very often either.

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Originally posted by Krypton Has it worked?

who cares? this has fucking nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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Originally posted by Krypton WTF are you talking about!? You never heard the administration state, "We're going to liberate the Iraqi's and bring them democracy."?? You can't be serious. . .

Christ, of course I have. But it was certainly much more used after WMDs werent found. Ie just because the administration says it doesn’t make it true. In any case, I felt the liberation of afghanistan was the right thing to do so you wont find me criticising them for that.

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Originally posted by Krypton I also don't recall Reagan or Clinton or Nixon occupying Baghdad. It was the Bush admin, so to try to say I'm just another Bush bashing fanatic really means nothing because the action was perpetrated by that regime!!

but your thread is about the historical support of israel, by ALL admins. so stop using examples exclusively from bush to make your argument.

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Originally posted by Krypton Who cares? If we are to have any semblance of international law and order, don't you think ALL countries should be scrutinized EQUALLY under the law? Wow, dude, that's really scary...

and one day you'll graduate from uni and start to live in the real world where things don’t work that way, despite how much we'd like to see it that way. And its existed like that for the last 100 years so I don’t see why youre running around crying about the sky suddenly falling.

and no, i dont think they should be "equally" scrutinised. those nations that are developing nuclear power, have autocratic regimes, suppress free speech and dissent, sponsor terrorist groups, should come under closer inspection than those that dont.

I hate to burst your idealistic bubble, but not all nations are equal. The thought that australia, for example, should be under the same scrutiny as a country like iran, syria or north korea in regards to nuclear technology is laughable.

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Originally posted by Krypton You don;t even know that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, so your point is baseless.

You are the one saying that it would be ok for them to do so, I'm saying that it would go against our best interests.

EOM

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

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Originally posted by Krypton According to the NIE report, Iran shut down it's nuclear weapons program in 2003. The Bush admin's case against Iran wouldn't hold up for 5 minutes in a courtroom.

wow man you are on a shallow tear tonight aren't ya?

here, get educated >link<

if it held up in a "UN court" would it matter to you then?

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Originally posted by Krypton Well so, Israel operates completely outside of international law. How much better !?!?

In this case, they aren't operating outside of international law at all. In order to be held by the terms of the treaty, they have to have signed it first. Treaties have to be entered into willingly - that is a state sovereignty issue, yes? The US can't simply force Israel into signing it. That said, this was a source of a huge diplomatic struggle between Israel and the US. I suggest going here to read some of the documents testifying to that fact:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel...ttle/index.html

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Originally posted by Q5echo here, get educated >link<

wow, that's pretty scary stuff.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN wow, that's pretty scary stuff.

Indeed,it is time to bomb them!!!!

___________________
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Originally posted by Krypton Listen Q, I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons.

up until this point you did.

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They should have as much transparency as any other country should have,

agreed. they should also stop sponsoring terror and calling for the destruction of Israel.

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but my dissent comes from the reality of the situation which is that there is a double standard going on here, and it's not fair. This unfairness will always result in pissed off people who are more than glad to join militant movements to fight against this "oppression" as they understand it.

there's your problem. in the haste to cry "double standard" and invoking needless fear you've ignored decades of nuclear good faith and stewardship on the part of the Israelis in favor of a myopic, head-in-the-sand view of nuclear proliferation by an internationaly recognized State sponsor of terror.

be honest though. you really don't know what you expect from Iran do you? your too busy worrying about double standards and wordplay or some other esoteric bullshit to be bothered with what Iran does, right? well listen, there are literally thousands of people all over the world. smart people. good people that don't give a damn what Bushitler says or does in the next 8 months that are determined to prevent Iran from proliferation. so forgive the rest of us who aren't going to buy into your shallow, prophetic, double standard fear mongering and let the international community worry about the important stuff.

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And we here are expecting Iran to be fully compliant 100%, while giving Israel the benefit of the doubt. Hypocrisy.

it's only hypocricy if you believe Iran is not a threat to anyone or you want "Israel wiped off the map". smart people though, can make a distinction.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Indeed,it is time to bomb them!!!!

i never said that violence is the last resort. but its not cool to see evidence of ANY regime making/researching weapons of this kind.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov In this case, they aren't operating outside of international law at all. In order to be held by the terms of the treaty, they have to have signed it first. Treaties have to be entered into willingly - that is a state sovereignty issue, yes? The US can't simply force Israel into signing it. That said, this was a source of a huge diplomatic struggle between Israel and the US. I suggest going here to read some of the documents testifying to that fact: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel...ttle/index.html

damn you're good.