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Originally posted by tathi when China invaded Tibet there was a liberation force that fought for independence, (forgot the name, i saw the doco years ago so my memory is shakey) and they were extremely fierce and feared by Chinese, it was out of respect for the Dalai Lama that they threw down their weapons. The Dalai Llama has preached the middle way and the Chinese have milked him for it for decades, their government cannot empathise with the peacefulness of Buddhism, they see only opportunity and weakness not peace and compassion. If a Tibetan is found in possession of a Tibetan flag in Tibet he is put in jail, their entire culture is being slowly but deliberately diluted and destroyed. Now their is an entire generation Tibetans who have never seen Tibet who are fucking angry and are pretty much waiting for the Lama to die out of their respect and reverence towards him before the real shit hits the fan where they rise up out of the refugee camps in India and fight against this brutal and oppressive regime using the most effective method available to those otherwise powerless without it - conventional terrorism.

well stated...

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Originally posted by tathi when China invaded Tibet there was a liberation force that fought for independence, (forgot the name, i saw the doco years ago so my memory is shakey) and they were extremely fierce and feared by Chinese, it was out of respect for the Dalai Lama that they threw down their weapons. The Dalai Llama has preached the middle way and the Chinese have milked him for it for decades, their government cannot empathise with the peacefulness of Buddhism, they see only opportunity and weakness not peace and compassion. If a Tibetan is found in possession of a Tibetan flag in Tibet he is put in jail, their entire culture is being slowly but deliberately diluted and destroyed. Now their is an entire generation Tibetans who have never seen Tibet who are fucking angry and are pretty much waiting for the Lama to die out of their respect and reverence towards him before the real shit hits the fan where they rise up out of the refugee camps in India and fight against this brutal and oppressive regime using the most effective method available to those otherwise powerless without it - conventional terrorism.

Yes, indeed, Chinese forces are ... well, brutal. The "shit hits the fan" can only apply to Tibetans themselves - I doubt Chinese will even flinch, because they have gazillion troops available to flatten Tibet in any event. So I'd say Tibet needs to concentrate on other methods to achieve greater autonomy and rights. Showing their anger will not deter the Chinese ... it will only enrage them. Which can be a dangerous thing. Lets face it - this whole Tibetan fiasco has been a terrible disappointment to both Chinese and Tibetans, and the only ones who are happy are the players on the sidelines who got what they wanted (which is of little benefit for either China or Tibet).

Its fun and all to protest against Chinese oppression of Tibet, but the whole story has been grossly misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. People are too naive to believe that by trying to ruin China's image the giant will bulge. People need to get a brain and start thinking first.


So why is Tibet so important to China? Well ... the answer is simple. Its a sort of a buffer zone between China and India, and even maybe Pakistan. China would rather not get India's influence to close to its Chinese heartland, and we all well know the China-India border war in 1950s/1960s ... and Tibet obviously was going to fall to either India or China.

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Originally posted by ******** also You do realize you are supporting the existance of a Cruel and Barbaric Dictorial State right? payment for homicide - the country existed under a danegeld based on social standing? nobility held about 50% of the land - or 62% of arable land. \\ Without heirs land reverts back to the government. High crime rate harsh government punishment so much so that people prefered to settle issues outside of the justice system. They still have sorcery and black magic in their law code as "serious crimes" But murder, treason and robbery could be paid for with valubles or bribing the court whipping of suspects occured during trial. but outside of buying off the crime you may also be whipped or forced to labour. Tibet exercises CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT BY WESTERN STANDARDS AS INBUILT WITHIN THEIR LEGAL SYSTEM. including maiming offenders It's police were the military... thus the Dalai lama was a military dictator one which bribary was common

its hard to tell if this guy is being sarcastic or not, i will give him the benefit of the doubt because maybe he got through Chinas internet filter. i dont even know where to start though Do you think there is not a feudal system in China? I will go into this further in a bit when i tear apart that link to chinese propaganda you posted.

Nobility holds 50% of the land...im not going to even waste my time and look at the distribution of wealth between ethnic chinese peasants and upper class,

sorcery and black magic - who the fuck cares, its important in their culture, there are thousands of indigenous cultures that believe in sorcery and black magic, i have seen sorcery first hand in a shamanic ceremony in Colombia, should we enforce our beliefs on them so that they are only allowed to believe in McDonalds or Mao?

bribary exists in the third world? fuck your kidding me? your living in a fantasy land man.

Tibet exercises CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT BY WESTERN STANDARDS AS INBUILT WITHIN THEIR LEGAL SYSTEM - are they harvesting their prisoners organs like the Chinese prison system?

from that link:

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the CPG declared that all nationalities within the boundaries of the CPR are equal and that they shall establisj unity and mutual aid and oppose imperialism and their own public enemies, so that the CPR will become a big family of fraternity and cooperation, composed of all its nationalities.

all nationalities within China are equal in name only, there is a huge class war going on in China and minorities are almost always of a poorer class, if the chinese elite like fucking over their own kind do you think they are going to treat minorities any kinder? with the mass migration of poor peasant people into cities looking for work and with one position available for every ten people looking do you think an ethnic tibetan or someone from Uyghurs will get the job? then with the government encouraging ethnic chinese to move to Tibet (similar to what the Javanese are doing in Papua New Guinea where similar allegations of cultural genocide have been made) the tibetan economy has grown but its the ethnic chinese who control it, who own all the shops, and who are only employing other chinese for all but the most menial tasks. Tibetans have become second class citizens in their own country.

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Within the big family of all nationalities of the CPR, national regional autonomy shall be exercised in areas where national minorities shall have freedom to develop their spoken and written languages and to preserve or reform their customs, habits and religious beliefs, and the CPG shall assist all national minorities to develop their political, economic, cultural, and educational construction work. Since then, all nationalities within the country- with the exception of those in the areas of Tibet and Taiwan- have gained liberation. Under the unified leadership of the CPG and the direct leadership of the higher levels of people's governments, all national minorities have fully enjoyed the right of national equality and have exercised, or are exercising, national regional autonomy.

Have the people of Uyghurs gained liberation? are they able to practice Islam?

Magnetonium ill answer your post a bit later because im busy at work, fortunately what youve written is no where near as ridiculous as this douch.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Yes, indeed, Chinese forces are ... well, brutal. The "shit hits the fan" can only apply to Tibetans themselves - I doubt Chinese will even flinch, because they have gazillion troops available to flatten Tibet in any event. So I'd say Tibet needs to concentrate on other methods to achieve greater autonomy and rights. Showing their anger will not deter the Chinese ... it will only enrage them. Which can be a dangerous thing. Lets face it - this whole Tibetan fiasco has been a terrible disappointment to both Chinese and Tibetans, and the only ones who are happy are the players on the sidelines who got what they wanted (which is of little benefit for either China or Tibet).

I agree with most of what you say there, China will just crush them, but how can they concentrate on "other methods" when these methods have been exhausted already, theyve tried to achieve greater autonomy and rights through diplomacy and peace and China has taken advantage of this.

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Its fun and all to protest against Chinese oppression of Tibet, but the whole story has been grossly misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. People are too naive to believe that by trying to ruin China's image the giant will bulge. People need to get a brain and start thinking first.

it is embarrassing China however, and while we may not be able to shame their government into changing their policies towards Sudan, Burma, Tibet, maybe it will change the way loyal citizens feel about their benevolent government once they realise the rest of the world is critical of it

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So why is Tibet so important to China? Well ... the answer is simple. Its a sort of a buffer zone between China and India, and even maybe Pakistan. China would rather not get India's influence to close to its Chinese heartland, and we all well know the China-India border war in 1950s/1960s ... and Tibet obviously was going to fall to either India or China.

i dont know if it would have fallen to India but i need to read up on the history for that area

Heck, India thought it was useless and hopeless to fight for greater autonomy and independence from British Empire until Mr. Ghandi came along

Face it - as much as some monks try to kick and shove the Chinese ass out of Tibet, violence will only provoke the bigger China which has limitless resources to spare.

I've been pretty busy lately, was meaning to reply, but then i forgot

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THERE IS NO FUEDAL SYSTEM IN CHINA

yeah that was a fuck up

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China is very multiethnic among the nationalities, I live with a number of different asian peoples, some from China - and they speak fondly of the ethnic nationalities within China and in no way seem biased.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Chinese expats or asians traveling abroad tend to be much more educated and tolerant of other cultures, thats natural.

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http://uhrp.org/articles/982/1/Uighurs-struggle-in-a-world-reshaped-by-Chinese-influx-/index.html That concern, many Uighurs charge, translates into harsh government control of their lives, restrictions on the use of their language in schools and on their Muslim religious practice, and a colonial-style economy that keeps most local people in menial jobs while Han Chinese immigrants run businesses and the local administration. "The government wants the Uighurs to be their slaves, they want our race to vanish," says a clothes trader in the bazaar in Urumqi who calls himself Qutub. "They are destroying the demographic balance by bringing in Chinese people," he adds. "They are drying out our roots."

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I'm not against sorcery although black magic is questionable for sure, but witch burnings are another matter completely - they persecuted those people, you are saying who cares if they do it.. the Dalai Lama's Law cared and it was a felony to practice, sorcery.

Fortunately China being a bastion of religious and spiritual tolerance has changed these archaic laws within its own borders. Oh but what about Falun Gong? Its kinda like black magic, a cult so Evil that this description makes my skin curl "a spiritual practice introduced to the public in China by Li Hongzhi. It has five sets of meditation exercises and seeks to develop practitioners' hearts and character according to the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance"

If you are a suspected Falun Gong practitioner you go to jail, you are subjected to various tortures including starvation, slave labor for long hours, beatings, sleep deprivation, brainwashing, threats. If your organs are still good when there done with you they may even go to good Ethnic Han Citizens.

http://www.flghrwg.net/index.php?op...emid=50&id=1691
http://www.flghrwg.net/index.php?op...emid=50&id=1692

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You are condoning government corruption.

I was being facetious I have lived in the third world, i have written essays on corruption, its an undeniable fact of life for the majority of countries on earth. You are kidding yourself if you think Chinas bureaucratic cronyism isnt rife with corruption.

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Well seeing as Tibet is a region of China with large expanses of unpopulated areas - it is only natural China's 3 billion population moves from Saigon and Beijing cause at least in the case of Beijin it is sinking.

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I'm appauled you would ignore Tibets inhumanities then go on to attack China for the same things which arn't wholely true.

Yeah i must be pretty fucked up if id prefer to live under Dalai the "dictator" than Mao Tse-Tung kiddy fiddler extraordinaire

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it gives tibet a fresh start and China the right to bring Human Rights at a higher standard to tibet.. and we can only hope Tibetans who accepted The Peoples Republic as a freind and ally can become more active and continue being franchised, and building a better tibet, a better china a better world.

So by franchising Tibet and Taiwan it can improve the efficiency of the Human Rights department at home while outsourcing its genocide department to Sudan, Burma, and North Korea abroad?

Last edited by tathi on Apr-29-2008 at 01:39

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Originally posted by Krypton Quebec was never its own country.

Technically no, but then Palestine was never a country too, and so many other parts of the world also.

The definition of a state as we now know it is pretty young.

Quebec was a french colony which went thru a conquest by the english, this means that the land was under a form or another of government, i.e. it wasn't empty land.

49.55% of people voted YES In Quebec to start negotiation with the rest of canada on its future role within Canada, failing to reach any accord after two years, it would have declared independance.

Chretien (former Canada PM in the NO side) went on record, later, saying that he would have not recognized a YES victory the day after the referendum. Parizeau (former Quebec PM) went on record that he would have declared independance right away if the victory would've been rejected. Crazy if you think about it, a lose-lose situation, very bad for the economy of both parties.

IMO, this bickering has to end at some point, and the only solution is to separate because the hardcore separatists (35% on the rise from 5% in the 60s) won't go away. Quebec-Canada have to do it Slovakia-Cezch style, sit down, work out the issues and details and just do it. Economy won't be hurt and there will be no surprises that finance people hate so much.

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