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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Beat me to it. I'd only add that the comment is directed at the people who defend their positions with "because the Founders said so!" and leave it at that, not taking into account the context of the decisions of the Founders - the majority of issues of the time were viciously debated for years. It's silly to forget that and think they represent uniformity of consensus on all issues relating to law and the Constitution. Whether times have changed or not, it's important to realize that "The Founders" were not a single entity, and that they spent more time disagreeing (and dueling) amongst themselves than agreeing on anything with unanimity of "intentions."

Unfortunately, they don't teach kids that in history class. All most Americans learn in the grammar school education is that "the constitution is the most amazing document in the world and the founding fathers were absolutely brilliant for putting it together" - which really seems about the biggest disservice/injustice American education could do to their legacy.

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Originally posted by RJT Unfortunately, they don't teach kids that in history class. All most Americans learn in the grammar school education is that "the constitution is the most amazing document in the world and the founding fathers were absolutely brilliant for putting it together" - which really seems about the biggest disservice/injustice American education could do to their legacy.

Poor Alexander Hamilton, he's so misunderstood.

I took a course on the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate and it was really fascinating to see just how construed common knowledge about the Constitutional Convention and the philosophies of the Founding Fathers really are.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Poor Alexander Hamilton, he's so misunderstood. I took a course on the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate and it was really fascinating to see just how construed common knowledge about the Constitutional Convention and the philosophies of the Founding Fathers really are.

I was really pretty clueless on it all until just the past year or two (studying loads of contemporary philosophy necessitated reading loads of modern political philosophy as well), but until then I'll admit to having bought into the very biased view of history I'd been taught.

About the only thing I've found since that the majority of the so called "founding fathers" really agreed on was their Deistic faiths - and even then that's basically saying they agreed to disagree with each other as to the specifics of God.

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Originally posted by RJT America's forefathers were brilliant, faultless men, whose example should be followed by the whole of the rest of the world. God and Jesus haven't ever made humans more perfect than them, and anyone who doesn't believe that is obviously an ignorant, communist, invalid pedophile who deserves to be shot out of a cannon into the asshole of Satan (i.e. the Sun). FREEDOM ISN'T FREE, IT'S BOUGHT WITH GUNS!

Funny, but sadly based on a stereotype that exists today.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie The fact that you're referring to the United States as "America" says a lot about how much you've thought about, well, anything. I don't think that Labrador and Chile necessarily agree with anything you say.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what the rest of the world calls you ; "America".

Very few people actually say "the States" or "United States".

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The founding fathers weren't just politicians. They were the first to apply the ideals of John Locke and Adam Smith. They were the first to give the power to the people thru' democracy. This is an example of principle ruling over personal power, as is with many politicians. Think about it....They could have chosen a king, thus, guaranteeing their status in the new country. But they didn't. They gave the power to the people. More than that, they wrote a contract between the people and the state protecting all people from the state. We should never forget what they did, and Americans should all protect what was given to them. No, they weren't just politicians. They were great men...and don't you forget PKC...

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Originally posted by Ania_xox I don't think he's right at all when one considers the scope of the subject he just addressed. It's so easy to rip on people and call them stupid as opposed to trying to educate them on something that is SEEMINGLY important to you considering the passion in your message. Way to cop out there. (yes i know this is the c0r)

yes, because its my job to fill the vast empty void between the average COR member's ears. those that repeatedly refer to the second amendment are far beyond help, and i dont see the point in flogging that old horse. but feel free to be an apologist for the willfully ignorant if you wish.

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Originally posted by glass You are full of more beans and semen, that Elton John on a fistfull of Roofie's

see, how is the rest of the world meant to take you seriously when you can't even command your native language?

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie The fact that you're referring to the United States as "America" says a lot about how much you've thought about, well, anything. I don't think that Labrador and Chile necessarily agree with anything you say.

Idiot.

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Originally posted by whiskers Go back to your sheep herd, the only reason you want to forget the past is because you want to hide the fact that you're an offspring of a criminal. Baaaah.

Trying the wrong tact there tiger. Im not nationalistic in the least and I couldn’t give a fuck about australia's criminal origins. Im a little smarter than that, far smarter than your average patriotic yank it appears.

would you like me to remind you of the convict history of the colonies? indeed, the issue of transportation to new holland came to a head due to the new world no longer taking criminals. how you like those apples?

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Originally posted by Nostalgic Did an American rape your mother or something? Jesus fucking christ.

Are you suggesting that a blanket, blind and/or completely misunderstood history of the your country by the very people that should understand it the best, is somehow ok? Or are you just another idiotic patriot that will leap to the defence of your country (whatever that means) just because?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I guess you could always argue that we should simply disregard the Constitution and make whatever laws we please. That would definitely make the thoughts of the founders irrelevant.

youre a smart bloke jingles so i'll cut you some slack this time. you know that's not what im saying (though to be fair there are plenty of countries that do just fine without their antiquated document).

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Originally posted by Krypton The founding fathers weren't just politicians. They were the first to apply the ideals of John Locke and Adam Smith. They were the first to give the power to the people thru' democracy. This is an example of principle ruling over personal power, as is with many politicians. Think about it....They could have chosen a king, thus, guaranteeing their status in the new country. But they didn't. They gave the power to the people. More than that, they wrote a contract between the people and the state protecting all people from the state. We should never forget what they did, and Americans should all protect what was given to them. No, they weren't just politicians. They were great men...and don't you forget PKC...

um, locke and smith were having a profound effect in europe well before the new world was doing anything interesting

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN um, locke and smith were having a profound effect in europe well before the new world was doing anything interesting

Maybe so, but none of it was institutionalized until the industrial revolution of England, and not even that. It took until the end World War I for Western Europe to really embrace those ideals. It was the founding fathers of America who really took those revolutionary ideas, and turned them into a full-fledged government. Don't forget the American democracy is the oldest in the world...

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You all should check out the John Adams mini-series on HBO if you haven't already. I posted a thread about it a few weeks ago but not many responses. It fights off those typical teachings we get in school and really shows things in a much more accurate and realistic light.

These men weren't perfect by any means, but they were visionaries and intellectuals of the highest caliber.

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Originally posted by Krypton Don't forget the American democracy is the oldest in the world...

"democracy" comes from the greek, demokratia (or something) which was a form of land-owning voting rights held by the populace at around 500 BC

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The U.S. isn't the first or oldest democracy, but if it lasts for nine more years, it will beat out ancient Athens for the longest unbroken stretch of democratic rule in world history.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The U.S. isn't the first or oldest democracy, but if it lasts for nine more years, it will beat out ancient Athens for the longest unbroken stretch of democratic rule in world history.

but the "US" has only existed since what, 1865 (??) how does that reconcile with

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The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was created in 1801 by the merger of the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland under the Act of Union. The principle of ministerial responsibility to the lower House did not develop until the 19th century — the House of Lords was superior to the House of Commons both in theory and in practice. Members of the House of Commons were elected in an antiquated electoral system, under which constituencies of vastly different sizes existed. Thus, the borough of Old Sarum, with seven voters, could elect two members, as could the borough of Dunwich, which had completely disappeared into the sea due to land erosion. In many cases, members of the Upper House also controlled tiny constituencies, known as pocket or rotten boroughs, and could ensure the election of their relatives or supporters. Many seats in the House of Commons were "owned" by the Lords. After the reforms of the 19th century, beginning with the Reform Act of 1832, the electoral system in the lower House was much more regularised. No longer dependent on the upper House for their seats, members of the House of Commons began to grow more assertive.

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Since 1776, if we take the Declaration of Independence as the starting date, or since 1787, if we take the adoption of its constitution as the starting date.