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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
In other news:





Well looks like Bush&Cheney are really trying to start another war AGAIN.

Good Job U.S.A.


The Tehran Times: the pinnacle of credible sources.

I'm sure the US has it's hands in something, but certainly not in purposefully killing civilians. Try again buddy.

Old Post May-23-2008 03:59  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
The Tehran Times: the pinnacle of credible sources.

So being a non-Western source somehow completely undermines it's credibility?


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post May-23-2008 04:01  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
So being a non-Western source somehow completely undermines it's credibility?


not at all. but being a government tool, i'm sure there is more fiction than fact to this story, which is not to say the story is absent of truth.

EDIT: i don't know much about the tehran times, but i do know that the story was fed to the paper by an iranian government source. you have to question the intentions of the article.

Old Post May-23-2008 04:03  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
not at all. but being a government tool, i'm sure there is more fiction than fact to this story, which is not to say the story is absent of truth.

As far as I remember, BBC is state funded. It's actually one of the better Western mainstream news sources, although I'll admit the quality has gone down in the last few years... which unfortunately seems to be a phenomenon affecting all media.
quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
EDIT: i don't know much about the tehran times, but i do know that the story was fed to the paper by an iranian government source. you have to question the intentions of the article.

Yes, obviously. But I don't see the Iranian goverment having much incentive or reason to make that up... nor would I find it happening to be a complete surprise given the CIA's history, including the last time it participated in tandem with MI-5 to overthrow it's demotratically elected goverment . Plus, umm, perhaps you're forgetting something... but we don't need any fabricated stories to push anti-American sentiment anywhere in the world... you can thank our foreign policy for that .


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post May-23-2008 04:14  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
But I don't see the Iranian goverment having much incentive or reason to make that up.


Here's a prime reason: the US government accuses Iran of funding and materially assisting terrorists. Iran is trying to discredit the US on the basis that it is funding and materially supporting groups that are similar to those that the US accuses Iran of supporting (i.e., al qaeda and hezbollah).

as shitty as our government is, i would be highly surprised if they were funding groups that were expressly intending to kill civilians. while the US has a pretty bad track record of funding counter government groups, the US also has, by far, the best track record of assisting ordinary citizens around the world.

Old Post May-23-2008 04:34  United States
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hardcore trancer
Mystic Mind



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto,Canada

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002

as shitty as our government is, i would be highly surprised if they were funding groups that were expressly intending to kill civilians. while the US has a pretty bad track record in funding counter government groups, the US has, by far, the best track record of assisting ordinary citizens around the world.



Are you serious?

There is NO DOUBT that the CIA has authorized covert action in Iran for some time now.
Special Forces and the CIA have been conducting incursions and meeting up with local resistance groups:


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IK28Ak01.html


they are also supplying and arming Iranian Resistance militias like People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran (MEK) a designated Communist, terrorist group responsible for many bombing attacks on Iranian civilians:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1301782_pf.html


And here's Washington accusing Iran of sponsoring terrorism when they're blatantly doing the same thing...

Of course when America sponsors reprehensible groups and regimes it's "fighting for freedom", when anyone else does it's pure terrorism.


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Old Post May-23-2008 04:44 
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Are you serious?

There is NO DOUBT that the CIA has authorized covert action in Iran for some time now.
Special Forces and the CIA have been conducting incursions and meeting up with local resistance groups:


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IK28Ak01.html


they are also supplying and arming Iranian Resistance militias like People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran (MEK) a designated Communist, terrorist group responsible for many bombing attacks on Iranian civilians:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1301782_pf.html


And here's Washington accusing Iran of sponsoring terrorism when they're blatantly doing the same thing...

Of course when America sponsors reprehensible groups and regimes it's "fighting for freedom", when anyone else does it's pure terrorism.


you should probably take a second look at what i wrote and at the washington post article. First, i did not say that the US doesn't support anti-Iranian groups. Second, i said that i doubt that the US supports groups that are purposefully killing civilians. Third, that article doesn't state that the US supports that group in any missions against Iran (or where the group kills civilians - in other words, by supply weapons or money), only that it provides security to its compound within Iraq, which doesn't impose additional financial burdens on the US military. Furthermore, the US actually lists the group as a terrorist group, which means not only do the US not supply the group, but it has frozen any assets the group may have that is under control of american businesses (banks and investment banks). Last, the article doesn't say that the group purposefully kills civilians.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-23-2008 at 05:17

Old Post May-23-2008 04:59  United States
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shaolin_Z
Hei Hu Quan



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas, USA: TXTA #102

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
you should probably take a second look at what i wrote and at the washington post article. First, i did not say that the US doesn't support anti-Iranian groups. Second, i said that i doubt that the US supports groups that are purposefully killing civilians. Third, that article doesn't state that the US supports that group in any missions against Iran (or where the group kills civilians - in other words, by supply weapons or money), only that it provides security to its compound within Iraq. Last, the article doesn't say that the group purposefully kills civilians.

The CIA's covert operations in recent history, including Iran itself, doesn't exactly reflect that. In Iran, it included bombing mosques and school buses as false flag terrorism to further propagate the idea that Massadeq was pro-Communist and "anti-Islam," which wasn't the case but it worked enough to serve the process of installing the Shah who did not have Mossadeq's intention to nationalize Iran oil and deny a monopoly to British Petroleum. It wasn't an independent CIA op, because MI5 was involved as well. But training death squads in Nicaragua and El Salvador is a CIA op. All declassified.


___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Old Post May-23-2008 05:16  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
The CIA's covert operations in recent history, including Iran itself, doesn't exactly reflect that. In Iran, it included bombing mosques and school buses as false flag terrorism to further propagate the idea that Massadeq was pro-Communist and "anti-Islam," which wasn't the case but it worked enough to serve the process of installing the Shah who did not have Mossadeq's intention to nationalize Iran oil and deny a monopoly to British Petroleum. It wasn't an independent CIA op, because MI5 was involved as well. But training death squads in Nicaragua and El Salvador is a CIA op. All declassified.


who were the death squads killing? that's an honest question because i don't know, but i assume it was political figures and not random mothers and children taking a bus to school.

like i said before, i don't deny that the US has unclean hands in this dirty business. i'm just questioning the facts in that certainly inaccurate article previously posted. Also, i question anyone who says the government knowingly funded groups that purposefully killed civilians. i'm sure the groups killed people, but those people were tactical targets.

Old Post May-23-2008 05:18  United States
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hardcore trancer
Mystic Mind



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto,Canada

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
you should probably take a second look at what i wrote and at the washington post article. First, i did not say that the US doesn't support anti-Iranian groups. Second, i said that i doubt that the US supports groups that are purposefully killing civilians. Third, that article doesn't state that the US supports that group in any missions against Iran (or where the group kills civilians - in other words, by supply weapons or money), only that it provides security to its compound within Iraq. Last, the article doesn't say that the group purposefully kills civilians.



Funny thing about MEK(Mojahedin Organization) is that they claim that they are going to "free Iran" but the fact is they are hated by almost all Iranians inside Iran.This is a very corrupt group and they are considered by many as a terrorist organization.this group is 10X more fanatic then the current regime in Iran.If they ever get their hands on Iran,they country would turn into a big disaster.

I cant understand how a country like the U.S who is extremely anti terrorism goes and shows its support for a disgusting organization like the Mojahedin.

I can dig much deeper regarding the Mojahedin and their truth behind them.Also I would like to mention that this group has tried many times to try to get the U.S. congress approval for their cause and so far they havent been very successful(except for a few Repulican members) at it.


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Old Post May-23-2008 05:22 
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Funny thing about MEK(Mojahedin Organization) is that they claim that they are going to "free Iran" but the fact is they are hated by almost all Iranians inside Iran.This is a very corrupt group and they are considered by many as a terrorist organization.this group is 10X more fanatic then the current regime in Iran.If they ever get their hands on Iran,they country would turn into a big disaster.

I cant understand how a country like the U.S who is extremely anti terrorism goes and shows its support for a disgusting organization like the Mojahedin.

I can dig much deeper regarding the Mojahedin and their truth behind them.Also I would like to mention that this group has tried many times to try to get the U.S. congress approval for their cause and so far they havent been very successful(except for a few Repulican members) at it.


do you see your own contradiction?

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
I cant understand how a country like the U.S who is extremely anti terrorism goes and shows its support for a disgusting organization like the Mojahedin.


then

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Also I would like to mention that this group has tried many times to try to get the U.S. congress approval for their cause and so far they havent been very successful(except for a few Repulican members) at it.


consistency is highly important to a successful persuasive argument.

Old Post May-23-2008 05:29  United States
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hardcore trancer
Mystic Mind



Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto,Canada

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
who were the death squads killing? that's an honest question because i don't know, but i assume it was political figures and not random mothers and children taking a bus to school.



Here is a good article from someone who got turtored by Savak.

http://www.ghandchi.com/14-Savak.htm

and this


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savak



quote:
Also, i question anyone who says the government knowingly funded groups that purposefully killed civilians. i'm sure the groups killed people, but those people were tactical targets.



Sure here just a little taste for you:

Korea, 1950 - 100,000 "leftists" and peasants killed by US backed regime.

Guatemala 1954 - democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán is overthrown, right-wing Military Junta installed, executes upto 50,000 "traitors" & "Communists"

Iraq 1963 - The Ba'ath Party led by Abdel Karim Kassem (Saddam's cousin) comes to power with the CIA's help, and is given lists, locations and weapons to rid the country of Communists.

Chile 1973 - Democratically-elected President Salvador Allende is overthrown in a coup with CIA backing and replaced by the right-wing, military dictator Augusto Pinochet who proceeds to lock up, torture or execute anyone he claims is a Communist for around 15 years.

Afghanistan 1980's - The epitome of one's mistakes biting them in the ass, CIA provides widespread arming and funding of Mujahideen militias to deter Soviet Occupation, the same Mujahideen who later formed the vicious and cruel Taliban regime and provided a save haven for Osama and Al-Qaeda.

Nicaragua 1981-1990 - CIA provides arms, funds and training to the right-wing Sandinista Regime (known as the Contras) who executed over 80,000 Nicaraguan civilians. The funding for the Nicarguan Operation came from profits made via secret arms sales to Iran during the Iran-Iraq War.


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Old Post May-23-2008 05:37 
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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > Nice Job Iran
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