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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by George Smiley
Er no I think we've demonstrated it is possible for a privileged few to amass that amount if they give up having a life until they are retired...


a privileged few? wtf does that mean george? are you not "priviledged" enough to have 10-15% of your income working for you instead of you working for it...till you die? if the quality of your life depends completely on having that 10% till you die then i'd first question what the hell it is you want from life in the first place.

10%, 15%, a million dollars. these are all arbitrary #'s really. the idea is to have more, using less, over time. it's not a concept for the priviledged few. it's a concept for people who want more out of life than what they, by themselves or the state, can provide for it.

Old Post May-30-2008 11:45  United States
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George Smiley
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: 9 Bywater Street, Chelsea, London

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
a privileged few? wtf does that mean george? are you not "priviledged" enough to have 10-15% of your income working for you instead of you working for it...till you die? if the quality of your life depends completely on having that 10% till you die then i'd first question what the hell it is you want from life in the first place.

10%, 15%, a million dollars. these are all arbitrary #'s really. the idea is to have more, using less, over time. it's not a concept for the priviledged few. it's a concept for people who want more out of life than what they, by themselves or the state, can provide for it.

I mean that I think our calculations have shown that this opportunity is not widely available to the population, but only to those that can afford to amass that amount of money. If they can, then fair play to them (altho I would expect them to be contributing more to society as a result, but that's a different thread). But the point you and others are trying to make is not that it is possible to amass that amount, but that it is possible for a large majority of people to do so, indeed, I think somebody even said people who don't are "stupid" (or words to that effect)

Old Post May-30-2008 12:08  England
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Zild
Ten City



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156

Most people I know almost live paycheck to paycheck and have a bit of debt just to make ends meet. I think you forget that most people don't have college educations nor do they have the luxury of being able to sit around on a computer debating economics with other privileged members of society.


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Old Post May-30-2008 14:25  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
Most people I know almost live paycheck to paycheck and have a bit of debt just to make ends meet. I think you forget that most people don't have college educations nor do they have the luxury of being able to sit around on a computer debating economics with other privileged members of society.


very true....think about it, everyone is worried about an total increase in gas costs of 5 dollars every fill up. If you are worried about 20 bucks a month, you aren't saving shit.

Old Post May-30-2008 17:23  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
very true....think about it, everyone is worried about an total increase in gas costs of 5 dollars every fill up. If you are worried about 20 bucks a month, you aren't saving shit.


Sure, or you could also be living beyond your current means.

Funny, I remember this from Psychology class. I think the lesson is applicable here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshmallow_Test

quote:
Deferred gratification or delayed gratification is the ability to wait in order to obtain something that one wants. This ability is usually considered to be a personality trait which is important for life success. Daniel Goleman has suggested that it is an important component of emotional intelligence. People who lack this trait are said to need instant gratification and may suffer from poor impulse control.

Psychoanalysts have argued that people with poor impulse control suffer from "weak ego boundaries". The term comes from Sigmund Freud's theory of personality where the id is the pleasure principle, the superego is the morality principle, and the ego is the reality principle. The ego's job is to satisfy the needs of the id while respecting other people's needs. According to this theory, a person who is unable to delay gratification may possess an unbalanced id that the ego and superego are unable to control.

Poor impulse control may be related to biological factors in the brain. Researchers have found that children with fetal alcohol syndrome are less able to delay gratification.[1]

The marshmallow experiment is a famous test of this concept conducted by Walter Mischel at Stanford University and discussed by Daniel Goleman in his popular work. In the 1960s a group of four-year olds were tested by being given a marshmallow and promised another, only if they could wait 20 minutes before eating the first one. Some children could wait and others could not. The researchers then followed the progress of each child into adolescence, and demonstrated that those with the ability to wait were better adjusted and more dependable (determined via surveys of their parents and teachers), and scored an average of 210 points higher on the Scholastic Aptitude Test.[2]

Another famous impulse control test is the "gift delay," in which children were shown a nicely wrapped gift but told they must complete a puzzle before opening it. Researchers then calculated a "delay score" based on how long the kids hold out. When independent examiners interviewed the test subject years later, they found that boys who had not delayed were "irritable" and that the girls were "sulky." In contrast, the patient boys were "attentive" and the girls "competent." [3]

Currently, a free self-report Delaying Gratification Inventory[4] is available online as a part of a research project conducted by Central Michigan University. The survey describes trait differences in the tendency to delay gratification along six categories as well as a global domain. The survey provides custom personality feedback on this trait.


Obviously not everyone will land the cushy job and have a salary that lets them run wild and binge on so much nonsense, and certainly not everyone is going to get to financial independence, it's silly to think every single person can do it. However, with some foresight and some good planning, everyone can make their futures a lot brighter than they otherwise would've been if they continue their spendthrift ways. I gots to have my cell phone and my cable TVs yo!

Last edited by Shakka on May-30-2008 at 20:37

Old Post May-30-2008 20:31  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Sure, or you could also be living beyond your current means.


while that's true, 20 buck a month (or so) shouldn't take you to the point where you finally realize you are living past your means.


no kidding about cable and cell phones. what did people do before that? without a cellphone or cable a person could save about 100-150 a month. drop the internet and that's another 40. Those savings should be no less than 150 a month. At a 6.5% annual return over 40 years that comes to 340K. Not bad for a mcdonalds' employee.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-30-2008 at 20:53

Old Post May-30-2008 20:48  United States
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

No, but $20/month saved for 40 years at 8% gets you $70K! Sorry for the sarcasm.

Bottom Line, there is obviously a gray area where a lack of prudence plays a role, but a lack of disposable income is clearly a limiting factor. However my position is simply that there are a lot more people with the means to save and invest in their future than currently choose to because most people want instant gratification. It's simply their nature. And I still don't think money is everything. People who are so hung up on money soon find out that money can't fill the void that they expect it will.

Old Post May-30-2008 20:53  United States
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jerZ07002
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2006
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka
Sorry for the sarcasm.

it's all good - see edited post above.

Old Post May-30-2008 20:55  United States
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DJ Shibby
Amphoteric Superbase



Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Of Earthzen and the Therethen

quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
Amen.

In fact, it is nearly impossible to make money in a free economy WITHOUT helping others in some way. That is the nature of capitalism. You can't build wealth for yourself without satisfying the needs and desires of others. In a free market, helping your fellow man is the key to your own success. Those who make others HAPPY (whether intentional or not) tend to acquire the most wealth. Very few politicians understand this simple truth. They tend to criticize and punish the successful, which ultimately hurts all of us.


Unless you're a failed oil entrepeneur turned president

Old Post May-31-2008 08:43  United States
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