quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Lol! You even say yourself that that "solution" will not work, so why even bother repeating it?! Gonna give us any clues as to how that "solution" will come about? (It's not actually a "solution", it is an "outcome". The solution is how to achieve that outcome)

those are actually four of the six primary demands of UN Resolution 1701. Israel with help from the Hezbollah prisoner exchange and UN verification of Israel's full withdrawl from Lebanon has met the other two.

my "solution" to the Shebaa problem is that if Shebaa Farms is Hezbollah's "Waterloo", why not put the onus on Israel to release it by honoring the demands of the cease fire?

why not show the world your ability and courage to achieve your goals and honor the cease fire and then appeal to the International community to put pressure on Israel to release Shebaa Farms?

with the current government in Israel in place that is not completely out of the realm of possibility.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer I hate sheeps like that too,and it is useless even trying to talk some sense into them.

I don't hate them, I think they're kind of lame. Disenginuity is always repulsive, and it's not limited to "sheep" by any means, although people described as sheep are often times much more degenerate. The man in the mirror is usually a disappointment too, so you [edit]shouldn't[/edit] judge them or yourself too harshly.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Jul-20-2008 at 23:13

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z First of all, I'm not fucking Palestinian or Israeli. I have no ties to this conflict whatsoever, of any type. You're a fucking retard if you think this is about religion. I'm not a nationalist, religious in any traditional sense at all, nor do I identify with any religious, ethnic, or national group. So no need to superimpose the retarded concepts you (and the vast majority of people) utilize for the sake of identity. I'm beyond all that superficial separatist insecurity driven crap...

all of that and referring to the poor people of Palestine as "FUCKING Palestinian" and you have yet to answer my question:

You stated that

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z And what makes you think 'religious' extremists are the norm in the Arab world, or Palestinians in particular?

I post a video showing that how norm it is for 'religious' extremists, your words, to BROADCAST this shit on childrens tv.
And for some unknown reason only known to the infallible Shaolin Z, you call me a racist??

Is it perhaps I showed you how norm it is for 'religious' extremists to get a message out and you give no whys, or buts or reply. You give only insults and never get around to addressing WHY THIS IS RIGHT OR WRONG FOR THE 'religious' extremists TO broadcast this shit on TV...

Perhaps you are wrong on your statement that

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z And what makes you think 'religious' extremists are the norm in the Arab world, or Palestinians in particular?

my video was not racist, it just pointed out that YOU WERE WRONG! how norm is praising the death and suicide of humans on a childrens television Z??

you can send your apology thru a PM just so you can save face....if you want.

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Originally posted by Q5echo those are actually four of the six primary demands of UN Resolution 1701. Israel with help from the Hezbollah prisoner exchange and UN verification of Israel's full withdrawl from Lebanon has met the other two. my "solution" to the Shebaa problem is that if Shebaa Farms is Hezbollah's "Waterloo", why not put the onus on Israel to release it by honoring the demands of the cease fire? why not show the world your ability and courage to achieve your goals and honor the cease fire and then appeal to the International community to put pressure on Israel to release Shebaa Farms? with the current government in Israel in place that is not completely out of the realm of possibility.

Again, you're under the impression that Hizballah rockets are raining down on Israel constantly. Like I said, I'm not aware of any Hizballah rockets since the end of the War, 2 years ago...so your "solution" has been put to the test and proven to be a failure.

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Originally posted by George Smiley so your "solution" has been put to the test and proven to be a failure.

they haven't fully honored 1701 yet to even begin to make that assertion...however i don't expect that to stop you from making it.

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Originally posted by Q5echo they haven't fully honored 1701 yet to even begin to make that assertion...however i don't expect that to stop you from making it.

FFS if we're gonna start throwing around UN Resolutions that haven't been honored [sic] we'll be here all day with Israel won't we?!

Why should Hizballah have to comply with UN Resolutions when Israel can ignore them? They occupied Lebanon for nearly 20 years illegally, they then bombed the shit out of the country two years ago, illegally. Not to mention all the UN Resolutions relating to Palestine Israel ignores. The fact is, altho an attempt to 'fudge' the resolution, Syria ceded Shebaa Farms to Lebanon, so Israel is still in breech of 1701 as well.

Lebanon went through absolute hell during Israeli occupation and the bombing campaign of two years ago. The Lebanese Army were powerless to prevent Israeli aggression. Hizballah twice were successful in thwarting Israeli aggression so what on Earth makes you think they would think disarming would be a good idea?! The threat of Israeli invasion is always going to hang over Lebanon whilst ever the Palestinian conflict is going on. This is something Lebanon is powerless to influence as proved by their experience in the civil war. But when the Palestinian conflict spilled over their border they were the ones that bared the brunt. I don't like Hizballah and I certainly don't agree with their politics, but nor do I like Israeli politics and if Hizballah are the only group capable of fending off Israeli bombs in Lebanon then to suggest that they disarm is crazy unless there are definite signs that Israel has no intention of bombing the shit out of the country in the future...unfortunately Israel doesn't seem to be able to give those kinds of guarantees

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley FFS if we're gonna start throwing around UN Resolutions that haven't been honored [sic] we'll be here all day with Israel won't we?! Why should Hizballah have to comply with UN Resolutions when Israel can ignore them? They occupied Lebanon for nearly 20 years illegally, they then bombed the shit out of the country two years ago, illegally. Not to mention all the UN Resolutions relating to Palestine Israel ignores. The fact is, altho an attempt to 'fudge' the resolution, Syria ceded Shebaa Farms to Lebanon, so Israel is still in breech of 1701 as well. Lebanon went through absolute hell during Israeli occupation and the bombing campaign of two years ago. The Lebanese Army were powerless to prevent Israeli aggression. Hizballah twice were successful in thwarting Israeli aggression so what on Earth makes you think they would think disarming would be a good idea?! The threat of Israeli invasion is always going to hang over Lebanon whilst ever the Palestinian conflict is going on. This is something Lebanon is powerless to influence as proved by their experience in the civil war. But when the Palestinian conflict spilled over their border they were the ones that bared the brunt. I don't like Hizballah and I certainly don't agree with their politics, but nor do I like Israeli politics and if Hizballah are the only group capable of fending off Israeli bombs in Lebanon then to suggest that they disarm is crazy unless there are definite signs that Israel has no intention of bombing the shit out of the country in the future...unfortunately Israel doesn't seem to be able to give those kinds of guarantees

well f**k, now your just making shit up.

1. Israel occupied the "security zone" north from the Israeli border to the Golan Heights. that buffer was made in agreement.

2. the UN did not and still doesn't recognize Shebaa Farms as a contingency of the pullout from the security zone.

the last two times Lebanon was attacked were the results of para-military forces (PLO and Hezbollah), independent of the government of Lebanon, waging war on their own terms.

Lebanon and the people of Lebanon have nothing to fear other than the zealots within the country of Lebanon. disarm those zealots and lets experience real peace and real negotiations.

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Originally posted by Q5echo well f**k, now your just making shit up.

This coming from the person who claims Hizballah fires rockets at Israel every day (or near enough)?! Lol!

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1. Israel occupied the "security zone" north from the Israeli border to the Golan Heights. that buffer was made in agreement.

Yea with the agreement of a Christian militia who committed some of the worse atrocities of the conflict with Israeli backing! Shites form the biggest demographic group in Lebanon - don't recall them "agreeing" to the occupation that made their lives hell

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2. the UN did not and still doesn't recognize Shebaa Farms as a contingency of the pullout from the security zone.

Well the UN doesn't recognise the right for Israel to conduct any activity inside the West Bank but guess what? I'll remember this insistence that UN Resolutions are followed to the tee next time you come out with some bollocks defending Israel's "right" to do anything it wants in the West Bank and Gaza.

But that's beside the point, as Israel has demonstrated in the past, UN Resolutions, much like our domestic laws, are open to interpretation. The fact is, Lebanon claims the Shebaa Farms are part of its territory, and the resolution merely calls on Israel to withdraw from all Lebanese territory.

My point has simply been that as Shebaa is worthless to Israel, why not call Hizballah's bluff and withdraw? What have they got to lose?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo the last two times Lebanon was attacked were the results of para-military forces (PLO and Hezbollah), independent of the government of Lebanon, waging war on their own terms.

I make no excuses for the actions of Hizballah in 2006 (I believe this was done to draw attention away from Iran's possible nuclear programme). However, you would be very unwise to play the 'blame game' for Lebanon's civil war cos it stretches right back parallel with the Israel-Palestine conflict. Altho I have no doubt you place the blame solely on the dirty Arabs, it's never that simple. The Palestine-Israel conflict spilled across Lebanon's border and Israel is as much to blame for that as you blame the PLO...

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Lebanon and the people of Lebanon have nothing to fear other than the zealots within the country of Lebanon. disarm those zealots and lets experience real peace and real negotiations.

Tell that to all the people who lost their lives under Israeli bombs. The fact is, Lebanese will live in fear of Israeli bloodlust whilst ever the Palestinian conflict remains unresolved. There are 1000s of Palestinian refugees in camps in Lebanon still and who is to say that Israel won't take action against them in the future?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Lol!

it's funny you only see that "LOL" or as a completely transparent defence mechanism here and not in any other forum. oh well.

i told you that was an honest and admittedly ironic mistake.

quote:

Yea with the agreement of a Christian militia who committed some of the worse atrocities of the conflict with Israeli backing! Shites form the biggest demographic group in Lebanon - don't recall them "agreeing" to the occupation that made their lives hell

wrong again Georgey. the entire Lebanese parliament ratified the agreement only to have it revoked a year later under the real occupation by Syria.

quote:

Well the UN doesn't recognise the right for Israel to conduct any activity inside the West Bank but guess what? I'll remember this insistence that UN Resolutions are followed to the tee next time you come out with some bollocks defending Israel's "right" to do anything it wants in the West Bank and Gaza. But that's beside the point, as Israel has demonstrated in the past, UN Resolutions, much like our domestic laws, are open to interpretation. The fact is, Lebanon claims the Shebaa Farms are part of its territory, and the resolution merely calls on Israel to withdraw from all Lebanese territory.

yeah, nice deflection to people that haven't had a government other than Israel's for those 20 years

quote:

My point has simply been that as Shebaa is worthless to Israel, why not call Hizballah's bluff and withdraw?

simple, an armed Hezbollah doesn't have a bluff to be called. they are who they are.

quote:

What have they got to lose?

more soldiers like Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo it's funny you only see that "LOL" or as a completely transparent defence mechanism here and not in any other forum. oh well. i told you that was an honest and admittedly ironic mistake.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about your continued remarks that imply Hizballah is continuously attacking Israel. To the best of my knowledge, Hizballah has upheld the ceasefire for two years now. Your arguments that Hizballah should uphold the ceasefire before Israel concedes is therefore redundant.

quote:

wrong again Georgey. the entire Lebanese parliament ratified the agreement only to have it revoked a year later under the real occupation by Syria.

I am aware of that, my comment was aimed at the Shiite (think I spelt that wrong below!) population under occupation who generally supported the Hizballah resistance to that occupation

quote:

yeah, nice deflection to people that haven't had a government other than Israel's for those 20 years

The comment was designed to show the hypocrisy of demanding Hizballah adhere to UN Resolutions but that everywhere else you argue Israel shouldn't have to adhere to them. I also commented that Lebanon itself claims sovereignty over Shebaa, and that if UN Resolutions are open to interpretation, like Israel has argued, then it is arguable that Israel has not in fact complied with 1701 as you accuse Hizballah of

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simple, an armed Hezbollah doesn't have a bluff to be called. they are who they are.

That's just a dumb comment to make that contributes nothing to the debate...

quote:

more soldiers like Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.

If Israel withdraws from Shebaa Israeli soldiers will die? Nice logic there, I won't bother asking how you came to that conclusion. Anyway, from the impression you give, Israeli soldiers will die anyway, so again, what have Israel got to lose?