quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Coke and K rather than ecstasy? Which kind of begs an interesting question: what the heck drives "trends" in drug usage within a music scene?

quality/novelty/cost/cool factor

Essentially, the term "trance" went from being a descriptor of how a certain kind of music made you feel to being used to name a genre due to overuse (which, at the time, would be the most "accessible" type of dance music), amirite?

i think so

i think the original trance producers and label managers saw it as a sort of cultural connection to somewhat more primitive, ageless, spiritual dance-based cultures.

trance music is an ancient thing that i feel they were trying to connect to through electronics in a more perfect way

i mean just look at the names of the tracks and artists and labels. such a huge exotic and eastern influence



edit: also, read this about berlin

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=6949

quote:

Mitte is one of the proud faces put on German unification. But outsider-artists and assorted freaks looped into the electronic borderlands help keep it in check. One guide to the city sharply refers to this subcultural elite — which first settled in Kreuzberg and has migrated east and north into Mitte and Prenzlauer Berg — as “anti-system deviants.” Viewed through the prism of a dialectical society that’s reinventing logic from experience rather than predetermined systems of belief, this description twinkles with innocence and romance.

quote:

Underground Berlin’s community of controlled madness — where radical thinkers and doers enjoy the freedom to be uncomfortable and social at the same time, in a town where work itself is being redefined in a local economy that rarely offers more than potential income-earning via government subsidies (for German citizens) and projects at home and (more likely) abroad for everyone else — is an opportunity for an artist that must be seized.

quote:

Hawtin was flanked left, about 15 feet above ground level, by one of eight musicians creating miniature sonic mysteries that fused into one sonic mind with a 300-minute-long pulse.

etc

Last edited by nefardec on Aug-14-2008 at 17:28

good thread


my opinion:

I'm seeing the lines blurred between genres more and more. I think as soon as each genre becomes heavily classifiable, a few producers from that genre will reach out to techniques used in other genres and break the mold. I also find that when things get too drummy and groove-oriented, producers will reach out for melodic and atmospheric elements, which is what i see happening with tech-house, minimal, techno etc. I never really understood the label of trance and the controversy, probably because I simply was not around when the whole berliner trance thing was going on...I got heavily into EDM when dutch trance was exploding.

I've reached the point, as a dj, where I'm looking through every genre section to find good records now. I find its easier to make records work together from different genres presently than it was say 4 years ago. I feel genre lines were much more concrete back then. Because of the borrowing evolution I really feel the only difference now between the genres is marketing, cool factor, trendiness, cliques, etc.

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quote:

Originally posted by nefardec also jivebo, i think your definition of trance as some 'high register' music is wayy too technical and misses the whole point of the documentary you have in your sig. maybe the poppy dancey pvd kind of stuff, but listen to the track at 4:45 and 5:50 in that video.

My point wasn't that a track having stuff in the high register means that it's trance, but that a track having nothing or very little in the high register means that it's probably not trance in the early trance style, and IMO the majority of early trance tracks bear that out as a generalization, though of course it isn't always true as you point out, and of course there can also be "trance" tracks that aren't in that specific style.

The problem is that when we starting talking about trance in semi-spiritual terms rather than in terms of sound, (a) it's not nearly as easy to separate the genres (but maybe this classification fetish is kind of pointless anyway, eh?) and (b) when you're using trance as a sort of pseudo-spiritual tag for a subjective state that the music creates in you rather than as a genre term covering a certain type of sound and arrangement, you can apply it to any music at all that affects you in that way, meaning that some music could simultaneously and equally be both "techno" and "trance," for example.

Which isn't necessarily a problem, but I thought this thread was supposed to be about what constitutes a "trancey sound."

Last edited by MrJiveBoJingles on Aug-14-2008 at 17:32

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The problem is that when we starting talking about trance in these semi-spiritual terms rather than in terms of sound, (a) it's not nearly as easy to separate the genres (but maybe this classification fetish is kind of pointless anyway, eh?) and (b) when you're using trance as a sort of pseudo-spiritual tag for a subjective state that the music creates in you rather than as a genre term covering a certain type of sound and arrangement, you can apply it to any music at all that affects you in that way, meaning that some music could simultaneously and equally be both "techno" and "trance."

again, i'm not inventing this spiritual stuff. mark reeder is saying this. "visions of shiva" is saying this. "cosmic baby" is saying this "sungods" "god's brain" "secret knowledge" "mystic force" "positive thinking" "project earth" "astral pilot" etc etc

the artists themselves infused it with a pseudo spiritual tag from the beginning. I don't think it's really about sound. it's about spirit and feeling. I think if it sounds similar it's more a result of limited technology and a tight scene that was creating its own mythology.

i think the line between techno and house and trance was blurry in the extreme and still is

ps, try to track down some marcel dettman sets

http://www.discogs.com/groups/topic/168031

they are blends of acid, house, techno, and trance

...but so is pvd's 92 dubmission set


wait til you get to minute 49 of the zenzero set part 1

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec again, i'm not inventing this spiritual stuff. mark reeder is saying this. "visions of shiva" is saying this. "cosmic baby" is saying this "sungods" "god's brain" "secret knowledge" "mystic force" "positive thinking" "project earth" "astral pilot" etc etc the artists themselves infused it with a pseudo spiritual tag from the beginning. I don't think it's really about sound. it's about spirit and feeling. I think if it sounds similar it's more a result of limited technology and a tight scene that was creating its own mythology. i think the line between techno and house and trance was blurry in the extreme and still is

So do I really.

I totally agree with you that the original producers of it were trying to create a certain feel and spirit rather than a specific sound, and that sound just happened to evolve out of the equipment and trends of the time rather than any conscious attempt on the part of producers to delimit their own efforts into a "genre."

But if someone talks about "trancey sounds," then I'm probably going to start talking about how trance historically sounded and compare those sounds to whatever tracks they mention rather than discussing whether the music makes me feel similarly to early trance, whether the scene has a similar vibe, etc., although those are certainly important and interesting discussions in their own right.

I don't think minimalism is a 'new' trend either, per se. Dance music tends to always go in cycles between anthemic/full-on and a more stripped down approach... it's just that nowadays, the word 'minimal' is everywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles But if someone talks about "trancey sounds," then I'm probably going to start talking about how trance historically sounded and compare those sounds to whatever tracks they mention rather than discussing whether the music makes me feel similarly to early trance, whether the scene has a similar vibe, etc., although those are certainly important and interesting discussions in their own right.

fair enough. i just wonder how useful that is.

it's like talking about paintings being similar just because they're both made on canvas with oils. for me it's the thematic content, composition, etc that matters


@game watch, certainly it's not new. rob hood was exploring minimalism back in 1990

what i did say was that it is the most important contemporary technique - i didn't say it was a new or novel technique.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec fair enough. i just wonder how useful that is. it's like talking about paintings being similar just because they're both made on canvas with oils. for me it's the thematic content, composition, etc that matters

No, it would be like comparing paintings according to their use of color, perspective, light and dark, etc. The visible elements (audible elements for music).

The other approach would be more like talking about paintings in terms of the beliefs and intentions of the artist, thematic content, and the social context in which it was painted. The stuff that isn't necessarily evident just by viewing it.

Still very interesting, and maybe more interesting depending on which painting you're talking about...