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Originally posted by Q5echo sure there is, they're Soviet era communists, cage their people like animals and launder drug money through Swiss banks. among other things.

Those are some hefty charges. And so what if they're communists. So is China and Vietnam, and we have trade deals with them.

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totally agree.

Then why don't you agree to Cuba practicing its own self-determination?

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we apply embargos all the time on a much lower standard than that.

Which is utterly ridiculous. It's economic black mail.

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and again, it's not like we don't give them nothing. humanitarian aid is what we do best. we don't deny them that.

Great, turn Cuba into a beggar nation, like Africa? We're not supposed to be "giving" them stuff, we're supposed be TRADING with them!

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why do you insist their "self-determination" is entirely determinate on what we do?

We should respect their right of self-determination. If they want to be communist, marxist, etc...WTF is it to you?

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in any case all they have to do is reject what has crippled them at the hands of one ideologue for the last half century and, BELIEVE ME, there will be no end to the outpouring of all that is good (and possibly bad considering they've been basically caged for 60 years) from this one country which apparently they can't live without.

Yea, their system isn't a shining example of prosperous governance, etc. But let the Cubans sort that out. This embargo to force them to kneel at the American juggarnaut is really ridiculous. Cuba didn't do anything to us so why do we have to be hostile towards them. Why do we always have to make enemies all over the world??

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Originally posted by Krypton And so what if they're communists. So is China and Vietnam, and we have trade deals with them.

yeah and their people are free (i guess as free as any other people's republic) to travel to other countries, go to university in other countries, ect.. Cubans are trapped like rats, dude and their monetary system exists partly to keep them down.

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Then why don't you agree to Cuba practicing its own self-determination?

i do but it's not an embargo that stands in the way of that.

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Which is utterly ridiculous. It's economic black mail.

thats what an embargo essentially is, blackmail. talk to the Japs or the Chinese about embargos, they've made it into a virtual artform.

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Great, turn Cuba into a beggar nation, like Africa? We're not supposed to be "giving" them stuff, we're supposed be TRADING with them!

you want us to stop giving them food and medical supplies? why? that would take an act of Congress seeing it was Congress in 2000 that lifted the ban on those items.

besides, the Soviets effectively made them a beggar nation by subsidizing 90% of their economy for 40 years..

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We should respect their right of self-determination. If they want to be communist, marxist, etc...WTF is it to you?

listen to wtf you're saying. first of all, self-determination and Marxist communism are mutually exclusive. and not just technically either but also in definition. second, where does this notion that we are the primary arbiters of their self-determination come from? it's an argument based purely on sympathy and does absolutely NO favor to them as so-called "self-determining" people.

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Yea, their system isn't a shining example of prosperous governance, etc. But let the Cubans sort that out. This embargo to force them to kneel at the American juggarnaut is really ridiculous. Cuba didn't do anything to us so why do we have to be hostile towards them. Why do we always have to make enemies all over the world??

look Danny Glover, the Cuban Revolution did all sorts wonderful things to us including taking all our American assets that existed long before Castro was even thought of, forced thousand of political prisoners over decades and brought us to the brink of thermo-nucular annihilation, but really thats beside the point. in effect, we ARE letting the Cubans "sort it out" but so far one man, a brutal political dictator, has stood in the way of any hope one could imagine of being able to "sort it out".

the one thing that stands in that way is not an embargo from one country, it's the failed mindset of ONE MAN apart from an entire culture of once free people. real free trade, regardless of the restrictions put on that trade, is the antithesis of that one man's mindset. the fact that they're free to trade with whomever else they want in the world is proof of that. you, a self described champion of self-determination, should welcome making a man like that your enemy.

Last edited by Q5echo on Sep-16-2008 at 11:44

it's one of the last remaining relics of the cold war and is pretty useless at this point in my opinion. Communism is a failure and Castro is on his last legs. It's time to move toward normalized relations if we hope for a change in the system of government when Castro dies.

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Originally posted by Q5echo yeah and their people are free (i guess as free as any other people's republic) to travel to other countries, go to university in other countries, ect.. Cubans are trapped like rats, dude and their monetary system exists partly to keep them down.

The economy sucks. This isn't that surprising. I don't see why this is an excuse for embargo? Cubans are free to leave the country if they want. They aren't "trapped like rats". If they want to leave, they can.

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i do but it's not an embargo that stands in the way of that.

Cuba is self-determining. The embargo is punishment for them doing that. I never ever said it stood in the way of them doing it.

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thats what an embargo essentially is, blackmail. talk to the Japs or the Chinese about embargos, they've made it into a virtual artform.

Which is utterly ridiculous, and imperialistic. I'm not informed about Chinese or Japanese embargos, you might want provide some example. But even with that, because they do it, we have an excuse to do it? SOrry but that doesn't fly.

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you want us to stop giving them food and medical supplies? why? that would take an act of Congress seeing it was Congress in 2000 that lifted the ban on those items. besides, the Soviets effectively made them a beggar nation by subsidizing 90% of their economy for 40 years..

Did you read what I said? I said we need to be trading with them, not giving them aide and turning them into a beggar country. The Soviets aren't around anymore, Cuba has been forced to be self-reliant and trade with Latin America, Europe, and Asia. But for some reason the US refused to trade with Cuba..

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listen to wtf you're saying. first of all, self-determination and Marxist communism are mutually exclusive. and not just technically either but also in definition. second, where does this notion that we are the primary arbiters of their self-determination come from? it's an argument based purely on sympathy and does absolutely NO favor to them as so-called "self-determining" people.

Ever heard of the Cuban Revolution? Yea, it's Cubans taking charge of their sovereignty, albeit, not in a democratic way. SOrry you can't accept that. And I never said we are the main arbiters of their self-determination. That straw man argument won't help you here. I'm saying the US should stop punishing Cuba just because the White House doesn't like their system of government.

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look Danny Glover, the Cuban Revolution did all sorts wonderful things to us including taking all our American assets that existed long before Castro was even thought of, forced thousand of political prisoners over decades and brought us to the brink of thermo-nucular annihilation, but really thats beside the point. in effect, we ARE letting the Cubans "sort it out" but so far one man, a brutal political dictator, has stood in the way of any hope one could imagine of being able to "sort it out".

I'm not Danny Glover. American assets deserved being confiscated. It is the Americans who propped up the Batista regime with money and weapons. It is American gangsters who turned Havana into a mob town exclusive only to American tourists. You're just pissed of the Cubans did something about it, and kicked this unjust foreign presence out of their country.

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the one thing that stands in that way is not an embargo from one country, it's the failed mindset of ONE MAN apart from an entire culture of once free people. real free trade, regardless of the restrictions put on that trade, is the antithesis of that one man's mindset. the fact that they're free to trade with whomever else they want in the world is proof of that. you, a self described champion of self-determination, should welcome making a man like that your enemy.

If you call the people of Cuba during Batista's regime, "free", then you don't know WTF you're talking about. If the people didn't support Castro, he wouldn't be in power. Deal with it. That's self-determination. The US has no excuse to punish them for doing what is only their right under the UN Charter.

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Krypton you got served by Q5echo.

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Originally posted by malek Krypton you got served by Q5echo.

No, you just agree with him. Getting served is having nothing else to say on my part in response to Q.

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Originally posted by Krypton No, you just agree with him. Getting served is having nothing else to say on my part in response to Q.

you are not bringing anything to the debate, just repeating yourself even when he proved you wrong.

I still don't understand what the US embargo has to do with the welfare of Cuba, they can do buisness and trade with the rest of the world. Thats over 200 countries...

Syria, Iran and countless other countries are embargoed but enjoy higher living standards because their government is moving forward to make things happens.

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I see all your guys points, and I obviously know much less than any of you. Thanks for the info.

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Originally posted by bas Dual exhaust tips on dual exhaust = QUAD EXHAUST = 300 gain in horsepower. Duh

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Originally posted by bas Undies with a dickhole aren't good for guys. Your balls can get caught in them. That's why I prefer to go over the gate instead of through the fence.

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Originally posted by malek you are not bringing anything to the debate, just repeating yourself even when he proved you wrong. I still don't understand what the US embargo has to do with the welfare of Cuba, they can do buisness and trade with the rest of the world. Thats over 200 countries... Syria, Iran and countless other countries are embargoed but enjoy higher living standards because their government is moving forward to make things happens.

Again, you just agree with him. And what the hell is trade when you've got the #1 economy sitting 90 miles from your coast, and they refuse to do business with you? It doesn't matter if Cuba can trade with every OTHER country in the world, they still are being punished with the embargo. Syria and Iran are able to do more trade because of their geographic position and the commodities with which they sell. Iran has oil, and if the west doesn't buy it, certainly the east will. Cuba's trade with the US should be #1 on their list if the embargo was not in place. It's the closest highly liquid market to them. But they can't have access to it. But let's also not forget that centrally planned economies simply don't work. With that aside, still, not being allowed access to the natural huge liquid market of the US just off their shores is highly damaging.

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Cuba is a tiny country if you put it in the Americas perspective, trading with countries like Mexico, Venezuela, Colombia and Brasil should be more than enough to spur wealth.

China is one of the biggest investors on the island btw if you didn't know that. IMO there's no other reason than having a planned and closed economy as the only source of blame. The US embargo is just an after thought of their misfortune.

Cuba has oil too btw.

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