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Originally posted by TranceGiant It's the same everywhere. Suffer some time at the "big law firms" to beef up your CV, then make the cut and lookg for something mor fulfilling. I'm sure this dilemma is not confined to Austria but is universal: Big Law: + Money, prestige, team work - ridiculous working hours, no life, monotone work, little autonomy, neutral: specialization in a small number of very specific fields, Small Law: + more flexibility, more responsibility, more variety, better working conditions - no fame, no money, sometimes little unsatisfying cases

A small firm does not always equal small pay. My fathers firm is probably 6-8 partners and maybe another 6-8 para-legals and misc. staff. My father easily is making well into the 6 figures every year. You can easily make six figures in any firm.

Also the smaller firms tend to be more specialized. It is the bigger firms that have issues. Before my father was in his current firm he was in a firm that was much more diluted in its fields and much, much larger. Usually finding your one passion in law and then finding a firm that caters to that will yield good results and usually its the smaller firms that you find it.

Don't forget as well, for most lawyers, no fame is good. Clients know who you are by your work and staying out of the press in most cases!

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 The detriment to your career by starting in the public sector is that it is much harder to transition to a big firm. If you have any desire to work in a big firm at any point in your life you should do it early because it's not an easy transition after your career begins.

This is simply not true. Many people start outside of big firms and work in the public sector for a few years and then join bigger private firms and usually end up in a position much higher, much faster than if they start out "in the mail room" so to speak.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 Most big firms do their hiring directly out of law school and then hire lateral mostly from other big firms and to a lesser extent from government. It is much easier to make the transition from big firm to government. In fact, that is a highly traveled route because a few years in a big firm sucks the life out of many lawyers and they want the better hours offered in government (and industry).

Are you a lawyer? Are any of your family attorneys? Have they ever worked for any public agency? Because if they have they must have been delusional.

Working for any government agency in their law departments is horrible! The hours are shit, the pay is shit, and you are worked constantly like a dog because no one has the money to hire more than the bare minimum! My fathers girlfriend is a low-level prosecutor for the city and it sounds like a horrible job (she loves it though). Everyday in front of a judge, handling maybe a half dozen different cases A DAY!

The private big firms might be just as bad as the public sector work and hours wise but the compensation and personal freedom is much higher. Of course that is if you are a vested member of the firm, not a lacky just out of school.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 one last note, big law is almost a prerequisite to a position in the general counsel's department of any major corporation, or major player in the finance industry. GC positions are excellent jobs with great hours and more importantly the possibility of equity compensation. Good luck trying to get into general counsels office of a major corporation without having a big firm on your resume. While it's possible, it's much easier if you could put on your resume a name like Skadden, Wachtell, Sullivan & Cromwell, Sidley Austin, etc... Enter the name of any major corporation in company field in the link below and you will see most lawyers have big firm experience (to the extent they show their work history - at any rate, almost all high ranking GC laywers have big firm experience). http://www.martindale.com/

This is the problem with law schools now I think. Recruiters from big firms have turned it into a glamour fest. They donate to lots of different schools, get their recruiters there and try to lure you into their company where you will be worked like a dog for. Sure you'll make about 160K a year, but you will realize 10 years down the road after getting a few raises that you haven't been granted any more responsibilities and you aren't going anyplace fast.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby A small firm does not always equal small pay. My fathers firm is probably 6-8 partners and maybe another 6-8 para-legals and misc. staff. My father easily is making well into the 6 figures every year. You can easily make six figures in any firm.

that's absolutely true. if a small firm can pull a big contingency case, each partner can easily make more money than a big firm partner. The problem is getting that case. I know a few guys out on their own that pull perhaps $300K a year doing criminal defense. I think that is the exception though. The average lawyer in the US makes about $100K a year, whereas the starting salary of an 1st year associate is $160K in many cities. Senior partners in big firms in NYC make over $1M a year. While making partner in a big firm is becoming increasingly difficult, the base salary of a 5th year associate in a big firm is around $230K, with bonus (up until this year) approaching $50K (this year is closer to 30K). very few small firm guys make that kind of money.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Also the smaller firms tend to be more specialized. It is the bigger firms that have issues. Before my father was in his current firm he was in a firm that was much more diluted in its fields and much, much larger. Usually finding your one passion in law and then finding a firm that caters to that will yield good results and usually its the smaller firms that you find it.

big firm lawyers are highly specialized themselves; the firm isn't necessarily specialized. I work in tax law and i'm highly specialized in US international tax issues, including foreign tax credits and outbound transactions. It's not even possible to get that experience in a small firm. Small firms don't have the client base that deals with these legal issues.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby This is simply not true. Many people start outside of big firms and work in the public sector for a few years and then join bigger private firms and usually end up in a position much higher, much faster than if they start out "in the mail room" so to speak.

that's not even close to true. search the attorney profiles at:

www.weil.com
www.sidley.com
www.skadden.com
www.cgsh.com

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Are you a lawyer? Are any of your family attorneys? Have they ever worked for any public agency? Because if they have they must have been delusional. Working for any government agency in their law departments is horrible! The hours are shit, the pay is shit, and you are worked constantly like a dog because no one has the money to hire more than the bare minimum! My fathers girlfriend is a low-level prosecutor for the city and it sounds like a horrible job (she loves it though). Everyday in front of a judge, handling maybe a half dozen different cases A DAY!

yes i'm a lawyer. i have gone through the law firm recruiting process so i am much more keenly aware of how it works than an outsider like yourself.

i know plenty of people who work as lawyers as government agencies (the IRS, SEC, and various city agencies). they work 9-5 and no weekends. i have no idea about prosecutors because most lawyers i know are tax, corporate, or commercial lawyers.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby The private big firms might be just as bad as the public sector work and hours wise but the compensation and personal freedom is much higher. Of course that is if you are a vested member of the firm, not a lacky just out of school.

you don't have any idea of how much lawyers in big firms in the US work! I work over 60 hours many weeks and people i know regularly work over 80 hours a week. On the other hand, my friend in the IRS strolls into work at 10am and leaves at 530pm. He never works on weekends and he doesn't even have a blackberry to be reached on the weekends.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 that's absolutely true. if a small firm can pull a big contingency case, each partner can easily make more money than a big firm partner. The problem is getting that case. I know a few guys out on their own that pull perhaps $300K a year doing criminal defense. I think that is the exception though. The average lawyer in the US makes about $100K a year, whereas the starting salary of an 1st year associate is $160K in many cities. Senior partners in big firms in NYC make over $1M a year. While making partner in a big firm is becoming increasingly difficult, the base salary of a 5th year associate in a big firm is around $230K, with bonus (up until this year) approaching $50K (this year is closer to 30K). very few small firm guys make that kind of money.

My fathers small firm has a constant stream of work because they are a private firm representing public institutions (mainly school districts). They always have legal problems (people suing them, etc) and they always have the money to pay for it (taxes!). If you are good then you will always be their first choice for their legal needs, and you can even get spill over work from agencies that have their own

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 big firm lawyers are highly specialized themselves; the firm isn't necessarily specialized. I work in tax law and i'm highly specialized in US international tax issues, including foreign tax credits and outbound transactions. It's not even possible to get that experience in a small firm. Small firms don't have the client base that deals with these legal issues.

True, you wont find this in smaller firms, but I think doing this sort of thing in the public sector before you move into the private side will get you higher much faster.

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Originally posted by Joss Weatherby True, you wont find this in smaller firms, but I think doing this sort of thing in the public sector before you move into the private side will get you higher much faster.

the dynamic of the legal industry must be different in the UK (if your flag accurately portrays your locale).

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 the dynamic of the legal industry must be different in the UK (if your flag accurately portrays your locale).

I think we are arguing opinions now.

These are the opinions I have developed listening to my relatives (in the United States) and what I have learned from them about how they have come to their positions practicing law.

This is from people that are in their mid-50s and have been practicing law now for almost 30 years and what I have learned from my cousins and other people that have attended law school in the recent past or are attending law school now.

UF [University of Florida]

^ this isn't a thread about the shittiest universities in America

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Originally posted by fayraree ^ this isn't a thread about the shittiest universities in America

Hah, get real dude.

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