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Originally posted by Q5echo yeah, it's painfully obvious you think the "relevancy" of Obama's answer to Joe's question is directly proportional how many times its mentioned. so not mention it at all and everything will be fine is your defence? tell me something thats not so obvious more to the point though...my God you people never cease to amaze me. how many times have politicians invoked people they've met on the campaign trail in a stump speech or debate of some sort? people like this are invoked because of their common connection with not only the electorate at large but whatever percieved connection they have to that particular candidate's viewpoint. how is this guy any different? i'll tell you why... this time the person who was invoked revealed something very telling about Obama, now he's targeted like a public official instead of who he really is or represents, the electorate. McCain brought up this guy because of what it revealed about your candidate, plain and simple. if anything is telling now it's how people like you tolerate, even condone, the personal destuction of people for what they believe in or what they expect out of the people THEY want working for THEM. if you can't step out of the f**king box and see how f**ked up that is then you are what's wrong with this country not guys like Joe the Plumber or even Obama for that matter

Yes but they're usually "invoked" in stump speeches or low key environments and as a passive anecdotal. Hillary does it all the time in her speeches, the comparisons are so vague I often wonder if those are real people or she just made them up. She has gotten in trouble for not describing their "situations" accurately.

McCain invoked JTP in a national debate, and spoke directly to him through the camera several times. Without meeting him first, without so much as a casual vetting. 26 times his name was mentioned. He did it again on Letterman, he hasn't even met this man. (EDIT: And he is still doing it, knowing full well now where it will lead.) Now McCain is trying to turn around and blame it on Obama?

At any rate I don't think it matters right now. The who said what when BS is so old. What's happening to JTP is more an example of the broken mass media machine that drives the current fourth estate. It is McCain's fault for starting the shit but there are lots of things to be said about the press' inability to exercise restraint (left, right, and center).

Last edited by josh4 on Oct-18-2008 at 01:19

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 where's the slippery slope? i had a prof in law school that used to say that a situation that is usually termed a slippery slope is more likely a sticky step. the slippery slope concept is usually BS because people like status quo and fight change to the bitter end. in any event, explain the slippery slope theory on this one. you fear an obama administration would push for lowering the highest marginal tax bracket to 100K? Even the most liberal democrat wouldn't go along with that, simply because it would put every member of congress is the highest tax bracket.

Ever heard the phrase "give him an inch and he'll take a mile?"

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Originally posted by josh4 Oh bullshit, as if I'm too naive to understand and wouldn't feel the way I do now should my situation be different. I get the philosophy and I agree with the methods. Regardless, as Occrider put it In the end, if its good enough for those guys, its good enough for me. Can't possibly be any worse than the past 8 years. (That was a cherry just for you.)

OK, since you have been protected by the walls of academia for the past 8 years, how specifically have the past 8 years been so bad for YOU?

Also, here's a newsflash: $250K ain't that much money.

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Originally posted by Shakka OK, since you have been protected by the walls of academia for the past 8 years, how specifically have the past 8 years been so bad for YOU? Also, here's a newsflash: $250K ain't that much money.

That's an obvious bait to get into a drawn out point by point confrontation with you that I have no interest in doing.

That's pretty fucking weak even for you. Don't make hyperbolic generalizations of you have no intention of even attempting to back them up.

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Originally posted by Shakka I don't give a shit about Joe the Plumber--again it's the philosophy involved and the slippery slope that Obama is pushing. Don't worry Josh, you too will have a job and a family to support some day.

Yeah, supporting your family by electing republicans will turn out great when your kid comes out to you one day. Or marries teh black folk. Or whatever crazy civil rights shit they come up with in the next 30 years.

And there's nothing like looking out for your kids' futures like making the dollar worth less than a peso, and inciting the hatred of half the world and half the nation.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby And there's nothing like looking out for your kids' futures like making the dollar worth less than a peso, and inciting the hatred of half the world and half the nation.

All significant challenges that I don't hold George Bush solely responsible for. I can readily admit to plenty of flaws and mistakes made by the Bush administration, but it goes far beyond that. Bush has just become the convenient scapegoat that nobody feels the need to challenge. Our entire society and culture are fucked up and it didn't just happen in the last 8 years.

Got a flat tire? Must be Bush's fault. Gas and upset stomach? Take some pepto, but don't forget to blame Bush.

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Originally posted by Shakka All significant challenges that I don't hold George Bush solely responsible for. I can readily admit to plenty of flaws and mistakes made by the Bush administration, but it goes far beyond that. Bush has just become the convenient scapegoat that nobody feels the need to challenge. Our entire society and culture are fucked up and it didn't just happen in the last 8 years. Got a flat tire? Must be Bush's fault. Gas and upset stomach? Take some pepto, but don't forget to blame Bush.

Well I can't fault you for having passion for your family or your fellow man...

Just be dynamic, don't buy the bullshit on either side of the fence.

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Originally posted by Shakka All significant challenges that I don't hold George Bush solely responsible for. I can readily admit to plenty of flaws and mistakes made by the Bush administration, but it goes far beyond that. Bush has just become the convenient scapegoat that nobody feels the need to challenge. Our entire society and culture are fucked up and it didn't just happen in the last 8 years. Got a flat tire? Must be Bush's fault. Gas and upset stomach? Take some pepto, but don't forget to blame Bush.

So you're flustered because everyone is taking the easy way out by just putting all their problems on Bush. What would you have them do, accurately describe the real people responsible for each minute problem?

Bush isn't a scapegoat, he has become an icon for everything wrong with the system and a culture that elects not qualified men but morons that "understand them" and their small town values. Continually making more problems for the country already waist deep in them while solving nothing.

Historians have already gone on record to call him the worst President in history. His approval ratings are approaching the worst for any president ever and all hes done is the best he can do. I'd like to know what has Bush done well. You can admit to his flaws and mistakes, but what is his legacy?

Though you don't seem to be defending Bush but making a generalization of your problem with people blaming him for everything. What exactly is your problem with it?

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Originally posted by josh4 So you're flustered because everyone is taking the easy way out by just putting all their problems on Bush. What would you have them do, accurately describe the real people responsible for each minute problem? Bush isn't a scapegoat, he has become an icon for everything wrong with the system and a culture that elects not qualified men but morons that "understand them" and their small town values. Continually making more problems for the country already waist deep in them while solving nothing. Historians have already gone on record to call him the worst President in history. His approval ratings are approaching the worst for any president ever and all hes done is the best he can do. I'd like to know what has Bush done well. You can admit to his flaws and mistakes, but what is his legacy? Though you don't seem to be defending Bush but making a generalization of your problem with people blaming him for everything. What exactly is your problem with it?

Nonsense, Bush has worked tirelessly to help free the people of the Middle East and bring them democracy.

___________________

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Originally posted by josh4 So you're flustered because everyone is taking the easy way out by just putting all their problems on Bush. What would you have them do, accurately describe the real people responsible for each minute problem? Bush isn't a scapegoat, he has become an icon for everything wrong with the system and a culture that elects not qualified men but morons that "understand them" and their small town values. Continually making more problems for the country already waist deep in them while solving nothing. Historians have already gone on record to call him the worst President in history. His approval ratings are approaching the worst for any president ever and all hes done is the best he can do. I'd like to know what has Bush done well. You can admit to his flaws and mistakes, but what is his legacy? Though you don't seem to be defending Bush but making a generalization of your problem with people blaming him for everything. What exactly is your problem with it?

So while you refuse to name specifics by your own admission, your main argument for why he is the worst is based on others' opinions and popularity polls. By those measures we also have a congress that is even worse than Bush! And hell, they probably are. You want to call Bush a bad president, that's fine--he certainly does leave a pretty unfortunate legacy. He came into office at the start of a recession and he's leaving with the financial system in shambles (Neither of which I believe he is directly responsible for, but both of which occurred while he was in office). He fought an extremely unpopular war, though many are hopeful that some good will ultimately come from it.

I happen to admire that he was often willing to do what was unpopular--that shows leadership (even if those decisions sometimes turned out to be poorly executed or not quite correct in hindsight). I simply don't need someone else's opinion to tell me what I believe.

Positively, he appointed Ben Bernanke, one of the smarter minds in this country to be able to come up with new, innovative ways to deal with the crisis we are seeing now. Bernanke has the unfortunate challenge of dealing with Greenspan's legacy (amazing how Greenspan got high approval marks, but helped sow the seeds for the crisis we're going through now, eh? Another reason I don't believe in opinion polls or approval ratings). I think that Paulson was behind the curve early in '07, but he has come to understand the crisis as well and is throwing everything he's got behind it. Those will probably be two of Bush's most important positive attributes.

Also, as far as Volcker, Buffet and the like go--I have nothing but the utmost respect for them, they are very smart and capable people. I would gladly remind you that they are also very supportive of the actions being taken by Fed and Treasury right now, so I'm not sure it's really a point to debate. I've generally taken your Bush criticisms to be more foreign policy related, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Quick--without looking it up on the Internet, tell me what you really know about Volcker.

Last edited by Shakka on Oct-18-2008 at 15:13