Every American needs to spend time in Eastern Europe.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I think every American should be required to spend at least six months in northern Europe.

if every american started from a similar playing field and had a quality public education through college then we would see things a little differently. our system inherently disfavors those who don't have access to higher education, and those who have access think its as easy for everyone else as it was for them (i.e., nothing a little hard work can't solve). which isn't always the case.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 if every american started from a similar playing field and had a quality public education through college then we would see things a little differently.

That's a bunch of bullshit. I immigrated to this country and did not have the "advantage" of most Americans and I still am doing better. This country has everything you need to get where you want.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 if every american started from a similar playing field and had a quality public education through college then we would see things a little differently. our system inherently disfavors those who don't have access to higher education, and those who have access think its easy for everyone else.

Yeah, I think the problem is that the elite are synonymous with wealth. Just look at the financial crisis we have - sons of rich New England families were getting free rides into Ivy League schools and Wall Street firms for years. It had nothing to do with their performance, but entirely based on their ancestry.

Performance in school is a worse indicator of future standing in this country than your pedigree, and I think that's a true shame.

We live in a country where someone can finish 892nd out of 894 in their college class, yet be a major-party candidate for President of the United States simply because their daddy was an Admiral and gave them a lot of privileges that were never really earned.

I think "fair" is a system where you have to earn your success - I don't think many people disagree. But I fail to see how a perpetuation of the divide between rich and poor creates an equal footing between people. I believe in equality - not of wealth, but of opportunity. And the system Shakka and the rest are promoting does not create equal opportunity, it merely reinforces the same divide that already exists, whereby the rich will always be elite and the poor will always be powerless.

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We also live in a system where a black man named Barak Hussein Obama can get elected as president of a nation. Why do you not see the other side of each issue? In every society you have people that abuse it. You will not change that. If you think America can be a perfect nation that you must talking out of your ass.

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Originally posted by Kapedano That's a bunch of bullshit. I immigrated to this country and did not have the "advantage" of most Americans and I still am doing better. This country has everything you need to get where you want.

doing better than who? are you doing better than paris hilton? how about havard MBAs who only got into harvard because of their father? comparing your success now to what it would have been in your home country proves absolutely nothing.

have you ever been to Camden, New Jersey; Newark, New Jersey; Detroit, Michigan; Baltimore, Maryland; Washington, D.C.; Little Rock, Arkansas? There is perpetual poverty in those areas because of a lack of access to quality education and the resources that make people from the Upper East Side perpetually rich. Sure, poor parenting is also an issue, but that could just as easily result from the same poor access to resources that I am talking about.

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Originally posted by Kapedano We also live in a system where a black man named Barak Hussein Obama can get elected as president of a nation. Why do you not see the other side of each issue? In every society you have people that abuse it. You will not change that. If you think America can be a perfect nation that you must talking out of your ass.

You've outlined the reason Obama's presidency would be transformative.

And you've also just used the argument: "We can't make America perfect, so why should we waste time trying to make it better?"

Congratulations - you may have taken the ad hominem crown away from Trancer-X.

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Originally posted by Kapedano We also live in a system where a black man named Barak Hussein Obama can get elected as president of a nation. Why do you not see the other side of each issue? In every society you have people that abuse it. You will not change that. If you think America can be a perfect nation that you must talking out of your ass.

of course i don't think american can be perfect, however, that doesn't mean we should end the pursuit to be as perfect as possible.

FYI - i'm a product of this system. i was raised by a single mother, and we were a lower middle income family. i went to public high school, public college, and then a top law school. I am succesful today because of our system. That does not diminish the fact that not everyone has access to the resources i was blessed with. my success doesn't mean everyone has it as easily as i did.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 doing better than who? are you doing better than paris hilton? how about havard MBAs who only got into harvard because of their father? comparing your success now to what it would have been in your home country proves absolutely nothing.

Ahhh...the grass is always greener. If you take this approach, you'll never be happy with who you are because there will always be some Greek shipping magnet or Russian oil oligarch, or whoever you choose to compare yourself to, that will have more than you and by your scale be happier than you. This is not a good scale to use for happiness.

I am happy because I have a job that I enjoy, a family that loves me, friends whose company I enjoy, and a climate that I find pleasant. That's an overly simplistic view, however I am not happy or unhappy because there are millions of people running around that have more material wealth than I do. I am the master of my destiny--not the government. Playing a constant game of keeping up with the Jones' is futile.

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Originally posted by Shakka Ahhh...the grass is always greener. If you take this approach, you'll never be happy with who you are because there will always be some Greek shipping magnet or Russian oil oligarch, or whoever you choose to compare yourself to, that will have more than you and by your scale be happier than you. This is not a good scale to use for happiness. I am happy because I have a job that I enjoy, a family that loves me, friends whose company I enjoy, and a climate that I find pleasant. That's an overly simplistic view, however I am not happy or unhappy because there are millions of people running around that have more material wealth than I do. I am the master of my destiny--not the government. Playing a constant game of keeping up with the Jones' is futile.

i don't disagree with your measurement of happiness. however, the discussion was dealing with the inequalities of access to resources within the US. comparing the access to resources of two different countries does not disprove there is unequal access within one country. the fact that he is better off in the US doesn't disprove it either.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 i don't disagree with your measurement of happiness. however, the discussion was dealing with the inequalities of access to resources within the US. comparing the access to resources of two different countries does not disprove there is unequal access within one country. the fact that he is better off in the US doesn't disprove it either.

I must admit, I have some luck on the way. I think this nation offers almost everything other then luck. Some people are lucky, and some, well...not so lucky. Just the way life is. I think these are problems that can not be fixed. A lot of it has to do with luck and mentality. Government can not offer both of them. This is only used as a tool to get more votes, and actually make people think that they are doing good.

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Originally posted by Shakka I guess I should be looking for a handout then seeing as how I don't pay enough taxes and many of the people BO claims to intend to help are those that pay little, if any income tax at all

You as in your society. You don't have free health care or free education for all at the same level as those with lots of money, therefore you, as a nation, obviously do not pay enough taxes (either personal or corporate) otherwise your country would have those basic rights

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The bottom line is that you want government to arbitrarily forcibly take money from those that have made it into the weaker hands of those that have not in the name of an arbitrarily, ever changing construct of "fair" depending on who the elected leaders are at the time and what their collective determination of "fair" is

So you don't think anybody should have to pay any taxes whatsoever?

Last edited by George Smiley on Oct-27-2008 at 20:57