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Originally posted by George Smiley You are correct that, in general, Poles and Czechs oppose the missile defence shield, my comments were said in the heat of the moment but the main comment was to tell you Russia is hated in the former Soviet Union and they DO feel threatened by Russia (which explains their desire to join NATO as soon as possible) No. I will not have you ask me ANY questions on missile defence until you can demonstrate to me that you understand what missile defence actually involves and not just parrot the line of Russian nationalism. Until you tell me that you accept that it is physically not possible to defend against 1000s of missiles then there is no point debating any further with you. I know that's harsh of me to say so, but there have been countless threads on missile defence and every time you post unsubstantiated opinions on what missile defence is and every single time you show you don't know anything about the technical side, you just parrot Russian nationalist rhetoric without thinking for yourself or listening to other people. I am telling you, as someone who has done a lot of research on the subject, that this missile defence is not capable, and never will be capable, of defending against a nuclear arsenal the size of Russia's. Either you can accept what I say, or you can do some research of your own, but until you can accept that fact there is no point you posting anything else on the subject or me responding any more to what you say on the subject. Once again, sorry to be a prick to you but this is something that is really important if you want to continue to debate about America's missile defence shield (which, incidently, I am opposed to)

Even Obama said that the new missile defense system is not guaranteed to stop the missiles from rogue states - why are they building it if it will most likely not even work / succeed / etc. The only thing that the base serves as is the strategic importance for America and conflict threat with Russia.

What if some rogue state dispatches more missiles than the defense shield could handle? What if the rogue states choose another method to hurt America, via terrorists, dirty bomb, attack from a submarine, etc. etc. It is utterly risky, dumb and irrational to launch a powerful missile which will fly over couple dozen countries (including quite possibly Russian airspace as well), and what IF it falls short and blows up lets say Vienna? Just think of the ramifications. Those are just some of the talking points, there's plenty more ideas and things out there to plain and simply conclude that this system is retarded if its aimed at Iran/North Korea. I hope you get the point.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Even Obama said that the new missile defense system is not guaranteed to stop the missiles from rogue states - why are they building it if it will most likely not even work / succeed / etc. The only thing that the base serves as is the strategic importance for America and conflict threat with Russia. What if some rogue state dispatches more missiles than the defense shield could handle? What if the rogue states choose another method to hurt America, via terrorists, dirty bomb, attack from a submarine, etc. etc. It is utterly risky, dumb and irrational to launch a powerful missile which will fly over couple dozen countries (including quite possibly Russian airspace as well), and what IF it falls short and blows up lets say Vienna? Just think of the ramifications. Those are just some of the talking points, there's plenty more ideas and things out there to plain and simply conclude that this system is retarded if its aimed at Iran/North Korea. I hope you get the point.

So this missile shield that you claim won't defend against missiles from rogue states WILL neutralise the Russian arsenal?!

You don't half talk some rubbish sometimes you know

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Originally posted by George Smiley So this missile shield that you claim won't defend against missiles from rogue states WILL neutralise the Russian arsenal?! You don't half talk some rubbish sometimes you know

Duh, of course its not meant to neutralize Russia. Its meant to isolate it and make spying on it easier. And to weaken Russian influence in the region. In case of war with Russia, the base will provide valuable support in radar and intelligence to pass over to Americans. The system will be able to track every single Russian military movement in the region. And then how close Russia will be able to develop relations with these countries who have NATO-deepened approach to issues? NATO continues to expand against Russia and that will prevent close relations and true co-operation because NATO wants Russia to play the game on its terms. And obviously Russia doesnt want that. Russia will refuse to become a NATO chess piece and become a cannon fodder for American/NATO agenda. And so it fiercely defends having a "buffer zone" around itself. With Georgia pulling away into NATO, Russia was able to "create" allies of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (quite a fucking joke, I must say). Both of those part of a feeble attempt to defend itself against a military bloc that has been fighting against Russia ever since its inception.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by BloodlustShaman Isn't there alot of neo-nazis shit or w/e in Russia? I know there is a lot of racism in the world but isn't Russia up there as one of the top racism countries? Anyone here know how bad racism is over there?

I gotta admit that racism is pretty bad in Russia, I lived there and seen it. The worst part of it is that in courts the prosecution is very light on the criminals who commit those hateful crimes.

This creates a huge problem for an ethnically diverse country like Russia. Sadly there are a lot of f*cktards in Russia, make no mistake about it. People who live in a country for generations made up of many cultures and ethnic groups, and become racist. That simply doesnt work. Its destructive for the country and for the mentality. Lots of crime.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium The system will be able to track every single Russian military movement in the region

And how exactly does it enable America to do that?

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In case of war with Russia

Do you not think that if ever there was going to be a war between Russia and America it would have already happened somewhere between 1945 and 1989?!

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And then how close Russia will be able to develop relations with these countries who have NATO-deepened approach to issues?

Whoever wants to join NATO is no-one's business but their own. Russia does not have the right to demand certain countries cannot join NATO just so they retain the ability to attack them like they did with Georgia!

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a military bloc that has been fighting against Russia ever since its inception.

Not after the Cold War...

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Originally posted by George Smiley And how exactly does it enable America to do that?

Its a radar with a sophisticated electronics monitoring system, early warning system, tracking the launches and movements of pretty much any aircraft and missiles in the entire region as far away as Iran ... you really think that the radar's sole job would be to wait and wait and wait until some missile from Iran flies over the base? What will they be doing in the meantime?

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Do you not think that if ever there was going to be a war between Russia and America it would have already happened somewhere between 1945 and 1989?!

Back then the countries were pretty close in strength, but today Russia is getting cornered and isolated quickly, and it doesnt have the tools to keep NATO away from its doorsteps. I think its only a matter of time before Russia does something about it. It will never allow itself to be totally isolated by NATO bloc. NATO's actions over Georgia are making things more obvious now.

NATO's agenda is different from Russian one. And believe me, the whole NATO-Russia co-operation group is a pile of horseshit. They could never co-operate on equal terms for a variety of reasons, and one of them is that NATO considers itself to be in advantage and rightfully wants Moscow to play the game on its terms.

Kinda odd how Russia-neutral or pro-Russian leaders in former Soviet-bloc countries all of sudden turn into fierce Russian critics once NATO influence seeps in a country. And then in the case of Ukraine and whatever the other NATO countries, they sell high-tech weaponry to Georgia to be used to attack Russian citizens and peacekeepers! WOW, thats really a very peaceful and open co-operation and expansion of NATO!!! NATO still sticks to the old mentality of using force, bases, troops, military approach to expansion. Military bloc is therefore a direct threat to Russia's territorial integrity and security.

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Whoever wants to join NATO is no-one's business but their own. Russia does not have the right to demand certain countries cannot join NATO just so they retain the ability to attack them like they did with Georgia!

Sure, but thats not exactly how things are portrayed if some country joins the Russian bloc ... i.e. "meddling in another country's affairs", "Russia's imperialistic pursuit", "return to the past", etc. etc. etc.

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Not after the Cold War...

Hello?? Recall Georgia's attack on South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Who gave billions to Saakashvilli and armed his troops to the teeth? What was the point of that? To start a war ... to attack Russian peacekeepers and citizens, and to drive all remaining Russian influence out of Georgia by FORCE. Thats NATO for you.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium So now Polish and Czech peoples can decide if they want to have their countries being aimed by some serious Russian missiles

if only...

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Originally posted by infinity HiGH if only...

If you've got 360 degree laser ships hovering over all major cities (with kilometers of aimspace!), how is a nuclear missile, or any missile, supposed to get past it without being vaporized?

WELL, if it were me answering that question, I'd say...

1. Shoot a last at the laser port itself from your ICBM.

2. Reflectors/heat insulations.

Every technology has a countermeasure.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Its a radar with a sophisticated electronics monitoring system, early warning system, tracking the launches and movements of pretty much any aircraft and missiles in the entire region as far away as Iran ... you really think that the radar's sole job would be to wait and wait and wait until some missile from Iran flies over the base? What will they be doing in the meantime?

Well after having a guided tour of RAF Fylingdales yesterday I can tell you EXACTLY what they will be doing whilst waiting for missiles! Fylingdales is part of the missile defence system and is run jointly by Britain and America. They pick up anything that flies into their radar scope and have 60 seconds to decide whether it's a missile or not. In the meantime they spend the vast majority of their time tracking every single object orbiting the Earth (satellites and debris) to make sure everything's where it should be (to answer your question)

However, you stated they would be able to track "every single Russian military movement in the region" - which they can't. They can only track missiles and other objects high in the atmosphere (or out of it in the case of missiles). They can't track planes or tanks etc (altho every country already has the capability to track planes, including Russia obviously)

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Back then the countries were pretty close in strength

You're talking about conventional strength. That becomes irrelevant when the country in question (ie Russia) has as much unconventional (that's nuclear to you) strength as they do. Russia is America's nuclear equal and no war will ever happen between the two countries

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NATO's agenda is different from Russian one. And believe me, the whole NATO-Russia co-operation group is a pile of horseshit. They could never co-operate on equal terms for a variety of reasons, and one of them is that NATO considers itself to be in advantage and rightfully wants Moscow to play the game on its terms.

"The game"? You know what NATO's raisin d'etre is right now? It's peacekeeping missions. NATO really had to sell itself, and continues to have to sell itself as being able and willing to take on peacekeeping missions due to a direct threat from the EU's ESDP (which was designed to undertake similar actions)

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Kinda odd how Russia-neutral or pro-Russian leaders in former Soviet-bloc countries all of sudden turn into fierce Russian critics once NATO influence seeps in a country. And then in the case of Ukraine and whatever the other NATO countries, they sell high-tech weaponry to Georgia to be used to attack Russian citizens and peacekeepers! WOW, thats really a very peaceful and open co-operation and expansion of NATO!!! NATO still sticks to the old mentality of using force, bases, troops, military approach to expansion. Military bloc is therefore a direct threat to Russia's territorial integrity and security.

NATO isn't a country so it doesn't sell weapons to anybody. And I doubt there are many "pro" Russian leaders in the ex Soviet Union for good reason. NATO is a political entity as much as a military entity and it makes sense to expand as other political blocs expand, namely the EU.

But let's not forget what NATO is about - it's a collective defence organisation, a defence against Russian (Soviet) expansion. Unless you want Russia to begin taking over and invading neighbouring countries, I really don't see why you should have a problem with NATO (as opposed to America)

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Sure, but thats not exactly how things are portrayed if some country joins the Russian bloc ... i.e. "meddling in another country's affairs", "Russia's imperialistic pursuit", "return to the past", etc. etc. etc.

"Russia's bloc"? Sorry have I missed something here, Russia has a bloc???

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Hello?? Recall Georgia's attack on South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Who gave billions to Saakashvilli and armed his troops to the teeth? What was the point of that? To start a war ... to attack Russian peacekeepers and citizens, and to drive all remaining Russian influence out of Georgia by FORCE. Thats NATO for you.[/COLOR]

When you say "NATO" do you actually mean America?