quote:

Originally posted by The17sss It was just different man... In a very simplistic explanation, Georgia did not break an agreed upon cease fire and launch a bunch of rockets into civillian Russian towns. If that happened, fucking A I'd be totally supportive of Russia turning Georgia into a parking lot. It was a matter between Georgian police/soldiers and Russian (so called) peacekeepers that got out of hand inside the borders of Georgia.

Actually thats EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

Georgian forces vied to take back South Ossetia, launching hundreds of rockets into and around Tskhinvali.

There were Russians there, and the Ossetians consider themselves Russians as well and Russia decided to act on that.

Is there ever going to be a solution to this mess?

It's such a shame that countless civilians have to pay with their lives for this. 250+ dead now, and it will have solved NOTHING.

For 4000 years the people of Israel have been fighting wars, it's truly sad that things there are in the same barbaric state they were in the days of the old testament.

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quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Actually thats EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Georgian forces vied to take back South Ossetia, launching hundreds of rockets into and around Tskhinvali. There were Russians there, and the Ossetians consider themselves Russians as well and Russia decided to act on that.

You're leaving out South Ossetian autonomy, which is actually the more relevant comparison. Georgia breached an internationally-agreed upon armistice that set up Ossetian autonomy, and Russia over-reacted.

As in this case, both sides are in the wrong, and both sides are responsible for the perpetuation of violence.

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I don't understand why Russia doesn't start to supply S-300 equipment to Gaza.

quote:

Originally posted by otec I don't understand why Russia doesn't start to supply S-300 equipment to Gaza.

Because Hamas cant afford it?

You realize that Russia is no longer in the "give shit away for the revolution" mode anymore right?

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Because Hamas cant afford it? You realize that Russia is no longer in the "give shit away for the revolution" mode anymore right?

Even if they could afford the purchase, could you imagine how difficult it would be to get that load into Gaza
haha. that would be an awkward border check.

they would have to have that shit assembled within Gaza, but with Israeli intelligence, in a split second a thirty meter radius would be turned into dust

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby Exactly! Q5echo, this might not be exactly the same sentiment, but very similar. On the issue of comparing the US invasion of Iraq to the Russian invasion of Georgia you agreed that there is a difference in moral equivalency. That you agree in condemnation of Russia for their unilateral and heavy actions but allow Israel to pursue unilateral and relatively larger action against Hamas inside the Gaza Strip appears as a double standard to me.

i see what you're trying to imply and on the surface is understadable, but you just touched the surface about what i was thinking.

Russia's incursion into Georgia, regardless of their reasoning, represented a renewed existential threat to former Soviet satelites like the Ukraine and Georgia ect. that harkened back to the glory days of the Cold War. something completely different and much more concderning to the world as a whole than whats going on today in the ME.

admitedly, i was wrong. a lot of us were, as Russia pulled right back out although they took their sweet time...it's Russia after all

if you looked back through that thread i never discussed proportionality. Russia was smart in using overwhelming force from the outset. thats how you control the situation to your advantage and minimize exposure. i was concerned about motive not proportionality.

in this latest case with Israel and Hamas, which is COMPLETEY different tactically as well as strategically, i have yet to Israel invade Gaza like Russia did in Georgia. but it's early

if you want to study a more similar parallel look at the Israeli/Hezbollah war in the summer of 2006. i think i have been consistent in my views for the last 2 and a half years

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i see what you're trying to imply and on the surface is understadable, but you just touched the surface about what i was thinking. Russia's incursion into Georgia, regardless of their reasoning, represented a renewed existential threat to former Soviet satelites like the Ukraine and Georgia ect. that harkened back to the glory days of the Cold War. something completely different and much more concderning to the world as a whole than whats going on today in the ME. admitedly, i was wrong. a lot of us were, as Russia pulled right back out although they took their sweet time...it's Russia after all if you looked back through that thread i never discussed proportionality. Russia was smart in using overwhelming force from the outset. thats how you control the situation to your advantage and minimize exposure. i was concerned about motive not proportionality. in this latest case with Israel and Hamas, which is COMPLETEY different tactically as well as strategically, i have yet to Israel invade Gaza like Russia did in Georgia. but it's early if you want to study a more similar parallel look at the Israeli/Hezbollah war in the summer of 2006. i think i have been consistent in my views for the last 2 and a half years

I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that Russia needed to use its massive force to control that situation quickly.

On the other hand, Georgia for the most part was a legitimate military force in uniform and on a much closer playing field to Russia.

Hamas is basically small time chumps with some shitty home made rockets and old soviet katyushas. Using F-16s and dropping ordinance from thirty thousand feet is a bit over kill.

I am not saying that Israel shouldn't be in there trying to defend itself, but when their biggest concern, as an Israeli spokesperson on CNN just said, "children wetting their bed" I do not think F-16s are the way to handle the situation.

Make no mistake: This IS the only way to solve this situation. Everything else is an illusion. History and statistics are very clear about this: Aggression doesn't defeat terrorism. Ridiculous violence does. It DOES.

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

This:

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo point being is that all this sobbing you do over the Gaza blockade ignores the fact that a blockade relies completely upon the tacit agreement of other countries that border her. the same goes for Jordan and the West Bank.

and this:

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King 16 israelis killed in about a decade from rockets 225 Palestinians killed by israeli missiles in ONE DAY. Disgusting

Are not mutually exclusive sentiments.

The enormously disproportionate response of Isreal has nothing to do with the disgusting lack of potlitical support for Palistine from leaders (not people) of other countries who claim to be allied to Palistine.

The enormous number of protests that are erupting along with the speed of thier response is quite astounding, and a bit inspiring. CNN has even been covering a good deal of protest coverage. This would never have happened a decade ago, either the people being able to protest or them getting covered on a major American news station.

Now it is in the political leaders court to be able to respond apropriately.

Economic santions on Isreal anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you obviously don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, so what you think or what you have to say about this where people are just trying to live in peace is again, not saying much

I tend to think not having 'a dog in this fight' actually makes what he has to say more relevant, not less.