quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Government can't create demand without offsetting demand somewhere else. Plus the solution above is just a temporary one. Those infrastructure jobs are all short term and not career type jobs. When the individual construction project is complete, bye bye employment... get back in the job search line.

That's never been the point - the infrastructure job stimulates the economy by increasing demand and getting the private sector back up off its knees. It's like an injection, not a permanent infrastructure bonanza - by injecting capital flow into the heart of the economy, it can restart circulation - when those construction workers have jobs, they're going to spend money, stimulating private businesses that are selling more goods. Likewise, it's private construction firms that are contracting with the government - they in turn interact with the rest of the economy in a way that is beneficial for the system.

Tax cuts that don't get spent aren't helpful at all in the short term simply because the economy continues to tank along with consumer confidence. Is fiscal discipline a bigger issue that will need to be dealt with? Yes, but it simply is not the answer for the dire problem we face right now.

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quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Government can't create demand without offsetting demand somewhere else.

that's not true. Demand is created by spending money. If people are putting money in the bank, and banks aren't lending, there isn't demand. Government spending will create demand, and only potentially offsetting future consumption by taxpayers.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Plus the solution above is just a temporary one. Those infrastructure jobs are all short term and not career type jobs. When the individual construction project is complete, bye bye employment... get back in the job search line.

the hope is that the construction jobs lead to increased spending by those workers during the terms of their employment, which leads to private jobs creation because of that spending. In addition, all of these companies need lawyers, accountants, and other professionals, who hopefully will also spend their increased earnings. The intent of these packages isn't to supplant private demand, but only get the ball rolling again so private consumers start spending again.

no, let's keep trying to put out this fire with gasoline. AWESOME!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 that's not true. Demand is created by spending money. If people are putting money in the bank, and banks aren't lending, there isn't demand. Government spending will create demand, and only potentially offsetting future consumption by taxpayers. the hope is that the construction jobs lead to increased spending by those workers during the terms of their employment, which leads to private jobs creation because of that spending. In addition, all of these companies need lawyers, accountants, and other professionals, who hopefully will also spend their increased earnings. The intent of these packages isn't to supplant private demand, but only get the ball rolling again so private consumers start spending again.

In the case of infrastructure spending... Would it not also lend itself to helping the long-term health of the economy?

I would imagine that healthy infrastructure would attract more business. Like sticking a new highway on the outskirts of a city... give it 10-15 years and suddenly it's not the outskirts anymore.

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Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Is fiscal discipline a bigger issue that will need to be dealt with? Yes, but it simply is not the answer for the dire problem we face right now.

I would argue that personal fiscal discipline is the BIGGEST issue that needs to be dealt with to prevent, or stop entirely, future credit-based crashes. Is it the short-term fix we need to stop the bleeding at this exact moment? I agree, it's not. But it's the KEY ISSUE that has to be dealt with. Why the fuck don't they teach personal finance in high school? A financially responsible population is also a fiscally stable population, no? And doesn't business THRIVE in a stable economic atmosphere?

I mean, it's great that the economy can chug-along with huge year-over-year sales increases on the back of money that doesn't exist yet (credit). But when people are given credit that can't actually ever pay it back, it seems when you get enough of them defaulting and going bankrupt at the same time, THIS is what we end up with.

___________________
Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam I would argue that personal fiscal discipline is the BIGGEST issue that needs to be dealt with to prevent, or stop entirely, future credit-based crashes.

you are spot on. i find no sense in borrowing money for all this other stimulus & temporary government funded projects when we have no fiscal discipline as a society. let this be a wakeup call and hopefull that can change over the next generation.

quote:

Originally posted by Spam I would argue that personal fiscal discipline is the BIGGEST issue that needs to be dealt with to prevent, or stop entirely, future credit-based crashes. Is it the short-term fix we need to stop the bleeding at this exact moment? I agree, it's not. But it's the KEY ISSUE that has to be dealt with. Why the fuck don't they teach personal finance in high school? A financially responsible population is also a fiscally stable population, no? And doesn't business THRIVE in a stable economic atmosphere?

No argument with this from me. Fiscal discipline is extremely important, but given the gravity of the current crisis, we don't have many options. We absolutely must do what we can to stimulate demand, otherwise fiscal discipline and balanced budgets are irrelevant - the economy will die.

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how come there hasn't been a single response to any of occrider's posts from the hacks in this thread?

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Update on Obama lying and the economy dying:

Remember when Obama announced that he had talked to the CEO of Caterpillar, Jim Owens, and that he had assured him that he was going to start hiring people after the stimulus bill was passed, going to start rehiring laid-off employees? Obvious bullshit, but he was using this to gain support for his spending bill. Then, the next day we saw the statement that followed directly from the Caterpillar CEO saying that wasn't true... as you will see here:



Read the story here in more detail if you want to see, from the CEO's and Congressman of that Peoria district's perspective, how Owens was ambushed and manipulated by Obama. Just a taste (from the Congressman's lips):

quote:

I asked Mr. Owens if he was really going to support this bill and he said (paraphrasing) "Aaron, I got ambushed. The President called me up and said, 'Jim, what would it take for you to rehire people at Caterpillar?'" Owens responded by saying if a "responsible stimulus bill" was passed, he would be able to rehire workers. And so the President left that phone call and went out and said "The CEO of Caterpillar said if my bill passes --" well, he made a couple of assumptions: first, that his stimulus bill was responsible -- which it wasn't. And number two, that it was going to get the economy going again -- which it didn't.

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/03/ambushed/

So basically Obama tricked him into supporting his bill publicly to get support for his bill. So what happens today?

quote:

Caterpillar Inc, the world’s largest maker of construction and mining equipment, notified an additional 2,454 workers in three states on Tuesday that they were losing their jobs as the company continues to try to bring production in line with plummeting demand.

And who is getting cut?

quote:

The bulk of the job cuts — nearly 1,600 in all — will come in Illinois at the company’s plants in East Peoria, which makes track-type tractors and pipe layers, and Aurora, where it makes hydraulic excavators and wheel loaders.

One would think, with so many stimulating infrastructure jobs being ready to go, a company like Caterpillar wouldn't be laying thousands of people off. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how come there hasn't been a single response to any of occrider's posts from the hacks in this thread?

I think that's fairly self-evident.

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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...LyfU&refer=home

"The tax on overseas income, proposed in Obama’s budget submission last month, might cost companies such as General Electric Co., Exxon Mobil Corp., Caterpillar Inc. and Ford Motor Co. a total of $362 billion, according to an analysis by Height Analytics, a Washington-based investors’ advisory group. "

"The tax “actually works the opposite of the way the Obama administration is describing,” said John Daane, chief executive officer of Altera Corp., the world’s second-largest maker of programmable chips. “Our profits would go down,” and the company would have to cut jobs, adding to unemployment, he said. "

" “If you’re looking for stimulus and to stop the bleeding and job losses, step one is to stabilize the current situation,” Larry Lawson, Lockheed’s F-22 program manager, said in an interview. Cutting the F-22 would mean Lockheed and its suppliers “would start laying people off,” he said. "