quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Correction, the internet started on various other flavours of UNIX, not Linux. And anyway, who gives a shit? The 1.5 billion home and corporate internet users aren't running web servers, they're running web browsers and word processors and MSN messenger and don't want to have to fuck with a million settings and .conf files just to get their work done. Hi, I'm Earth. Have we met? Roughly, oh, 100% of the world's corporate networks are based around Active Directory (Windows), so Linux definitely isn't the "only" option, or even a seriously viable one. As for your DRM whining, I've not met one single person who even notices it, much less cares. Yes, you keep telling yourself that. It doesn't quite explain how they got anybody to buy it, though. Wait, let me guess: "Marketing", your hand-waving catch-all answer for everything you don't understand. You see, this is exactly why I used Linux as an analogy. You've demonstrated my point with perfect precision. Of course there are a few people who have good reasons for using an obscure technology, but the majority of evangelists are people who: a) Don't understand how the market actually works; b) Have no clue how normal people interact with technology; c) Spend the majority of their time in a bubble, tinkering with their favourite product(s) and talking to others in the same boat; d) Possess a deeply biased and often outdated understanding of the industry standards, primarily due to point (c); and e) Automatically assume that any resistance must be due to ignorance, and could not possibly be the result of objective analysis. It's like this with Linux, it's like this with OpenOffice, it's like this with FLAC, and it's like this with pretty much every other "free" software on the fringe. I've said all I'm going to say on this subject. There is no way in hell I'm getting drawn into another interminable FOSS argument with a freetard on a production forum. You go ahead and rant about DRM; I'm going to continue living here in the real world.

Ok? They forced people to use blu-ray because they stopped supporting the HD format in their releases. And they did that only because they thing it will make it harder to copy media, and for no other reason. Had nothing to do with marketing in the advertisement sense.

People in general don't make preferences, they are given a preference and they accept it.

As for being FOSS..who cares if its free? Its not following the agenda of major studios and companies. People don't use linux because its free , they use it because when they do they arn't herded into different standards like people who use a mac or windows os. They don't have to worry about vendor lock-in and all this other crap. And as for businesses, i don't know who you have spoken to, but all the ones ive seen use linux, our local McDonalds uses linux systems. So does the pcs ive seen at the FedEx hub.

The point is in windows you have no control over the direction the software takes, and software companies are inherently working in their favor not ours. And Mac is just fucking shit no one but the queerest person could ever get use out of. No one is talking about better or worse, its about control. Having control over the software you use is more efficient than dealing with bugs in other software and hoping the company cares enough to fix them [then charge 200$ more for ths fix cough ableton cough]

You can use windows [presets] or you can use linux and program your own thing :P Actually that is a good comparison, people who use windows vs linux, and people who use presets vs programming their own sound. People who stick with cookie cutter genera vs people who are creative and make up their own genera.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-12-2009 at 18:58

Bad post, it's quite clear you actually fall under points ABC and E Diginut wrote about.

You're talking about control, which is only significant to power users/nerds/professionals in a particular field. The average computer user cares about usability, compatibility and consistency. For your average user Linux is below par on each of those 3 subjects. Oh, and this has got nothing to do with the creativity of anyone.

___________________

Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility?

Those were issues in 1999, not 2009. Welcome to the new decade.

And I mean "out of the box" no configuration required. You have to install wine and the restricted-extras. Both of those are 1 command each. With that you can do anything a normal windows user can do. And if you can't, you will in 2 months.

People don't use Linux because A. they don't know it exists, and B. they haven't used it in 20 years and think its still a clunky command prompt UNIX system used to run servers.

In the last 8 or so years Linux desktop distros have doubled their capacity each year almost.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility? Those were issues in 1999, not 2009. Welcome to the new decade. And I mean "out of the box" no configuration required. You have to install wine and the restricted-extras. Both of those are 1 command each. With that you can do anything a normal windows user can do. And if you can't, you will in 2 months. People don't use Linux because A. they don't know it exists, and B. they haven't used it in 20 years and think its still a clunky command prompt UNIX system used to run servers. In the last 8 or so years Linux desktop distros have doubled their capacity each year almost.

Do you use Linux or Ubuntu ?

___________________


http://soundcloud.com/subtara

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Ok? They forced people to use blu-ray because they stopped supporting the HD format in their releases. And they did that only because they thing it will make it harder to copy media, and for no other reason. Had nothing to do with marketing in the advertisement sense. People in general don't make preferences, they are given a preference and they accept it.

I'm only responding this part because it's a separate topic from the Linux nerd-rage.

HD-DVD was doomed from the start. I'm not sure who "they" are here, but HD-DVD was pushed principally by Toshiba, and Blu-Ray was backed by Sony. Sony owns half of the recording industry and just fought a better battle in general, so they won. Toshiba only gave up on HD-DVD when their market share got so low that it just wasn't profitable anymore.

There was never any material difference in copy-protection capability between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD.

Everybody thinks of the format war as being between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but in fact it was really between Blu-Ray and standard DVD. People already had huge DVD libraries and DVD equipment. The industry had to convince us to upgrade. They could not have done this without a significantly improved product - and of course Sony made a few smart moves along the way like putting Blu-Ray support into the PS3.

People don't just gobble up whatever they're offered if it involves a major learning curve and shelling out huge wads of cash. I know lots of people who are using 5-year-old computers, and a few people who are using 10-year-old computers. Sure, there are always a few geeks, early adopters, who don't mind spending hours or days or weeks researching a new technology and buying the insanely expensive equipment and diddling around forever setting it up and getting it to work and cooperate with all of the other technology, but for the vast majority, upgrading is an imposition. It's a chore. It's a last resort.

People don't want to upgrade, and they definitely don't want to be given choices they don't care about, such as whether to buy HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, or install KDE or Gnome, or encode in FLAC vs. MP3. People - myself included - just want shit to work properly so they can get things done.

I speak on behalf of almost every consumer to almost every manufacturer: DON'T give me more options. I have too many to worry about already. You are the designer, it's YOUR job to figure out how to get the best sound and the best picture with the best performance and the easiest UI and the smallest size and whatever else, and that WILL involve trade-offs, which WILL require you to make difficult decisions, and if you make the wrong ones, you WILL be blamed for marketing a piece of crap. That's how the world works. You can't escape your responsibilities by offloading all of those tough decisions to me, the user; I'm not interested, and I will just buy from someone else who isn't lazy. I will do that even if your product is free, because my time is not worthless. Get it?

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

ive tried ubuntu a few times, yes its easy to install and it seems stabile and its good that its free etc etc but you know what? it doesnt do anything its just an operative system and nothing more. i found it tricky to play my mp3 in a logical way and i couldnt arrange my files as fast as i wanted and i couldnt find a mediaplayer that worked like i wanted. if ubuntu had winamp i would consider it for second PC.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut myself included - just want shit to work properly so they can get things done.

So why are you using Windows?

I'm not a Linux-rager, you are just not making sense to me, you want things to just 'work'..yet you use an OS that is incapable of just 'working'

It boggles the mind I tell ya!

For the blu-ray stuff, what ever you have to tell yourself. Changes in the economy of technology don't happen because of what any of the consumers do. Formats are made and pushed, and technologies are invented based on what ever benefits the companies. We use the very unstable blu-ray format now because sony said they can stop piracy. And hollywood bought into it. And because of that crap we are stuck with an inferior format.

As for the guy above. Winamp does work on Linux, though I don't know why you would want that bloatware. Get Amarok it does everything winamp does. I think your issue was more you not knowing how to do what you want, not so much of the OS not capable of doing what you want.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-12-2009 at 21:52

A perfect example of bad usability right there by Palm.

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir Ubuntu out of the box does everything windows does. Where is this idea of no usability consistency and compatibility?

Everywhere.

Linux is incompatible and inconsistent because there are tons of distributions which require you to compile your software according to those specs for it to work (reading about these troubles on a certain music forum a lot). A normal user doesn't want to bother with these things. The lack of native and/or company driver support for linux on a lot of products makes it incompatible as well. This in turn affects the usability in a negative sense as well.

It's inconsistent because of all these different distributions with different specifications and interfaces. The differences/advantages/disadvantages of each distribution are unclear to average pc-users and thus they don't understand which they should pick and rather stay away from it.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut hd-dvd vs blu-ray

Exactly. Another older example was the VHS versus Betacam. While Betacam was better than our dear old VHS video-tape there was a better marketing strategy planned by the VHS. Which was the reason people adopted VHS instead of Betacam. Same logic applies on the hd-dvd vs blu ray case. Sony created a potential market by effectively including their technology in new products with good sales.

___________________

Storyteller Website | Storyteller @ Facebook | Storyteller @ Beatport | Storyteller @ Soundcloud | Stephen J. Kroos - Europa (Storyteller Remix)
Anthony Mea - Get It On (Storyteller Remix)

quote:

If less is more think about how much more more would be. -Frasier

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller A perfect example of bad usability right there by Palm. Everywhere. Linux is incompatible and inconsistent because there are tons of distributions which require you to compile your software according to those specs for it to work (reading about these troubles on a certain music forum a lot). A normal user doesn't want to bother with these things. The lack of native and/or company driver support for linux on a lot of products makes it incompatible as well. This in turn affects the usability in a negative sense as well. It's inconsistent because of all these different distributions with different specifications and interfaces. The differences/advantages/disadvantages of each distribution are unclear to average pc-users and thus they don't understand which they should pick and rather stay away from it.

You have to compile software on Linux? Been using it for years, ive never had to do that. Apt-get is your friend. Ive never had driver issues either.

I think the issue has nothing to do with compatibility or consistency, it has to do with people being to lazy or unwilling to learn how a computer should work. And if that is the case they shouldn't be using a PC.

Though someone who has been using "Click Next" windows for 20 years, I don't blame them for being content.

I was in a discussion about MDI and SDI GUI recently. Very similar to this.

vhs stuff:

During this format war there was no company pushing a certain format in order to gain more control over the content people are exposed to. In blu-ray vs hddvd this is the case. That is the crux of the format war between blu-ray and hddvd. Which format gave companies more control over what people were exposed to. And piracy was used as the excuse for these bogus ass features in blu-ray.

And DRM is an issue, I'm on a certain video game company forum full of people who are basically admitting to pirating a game made in 2009 because of the copy-protection that it has and how it installs rootkit technology without the person knowing and degrades performance.

Google starforce. Stuff like this degrades performance majorly. And with moves like blu-ray this technology will be even more and more shoved into everything. Windows Vista is a perfect example. Because of "protection" technology doing anything in vista requires twice the amount of resources as it does in XP.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-12-2009 at 22:06

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir You have to compile software on Linux? Been using it for years, ive never had to do that. Apt-get is your friend. Ive never had driver issues either.

Are you using Linux right now ?

___________________


http://soundcloud.com/subtara

quote:

Originally posted by cronodevir I don't know why you would want that bloatware. Get Amarok it does everything winamp does. I think your issue was more you not knowing how to do what you want, not so much of the OS not capable of doing what you want.

i want winamp beacuse it does exaclty what i want it to do and i dont want to learn anything new as my mind is trying to focus on something else. winamp allows me to put tracks easily into my ipod too so it has everything i need and more. and thats all i want from my mediaplayer so why change to something else? this is also the reason why im having a hard time moving away from Propellerhead Reason, beacuse it runs flawless and it does almost everything i need it to and i know everything about it. Sorry but im trying to move this thread into topic again. Im trying hard to like to mac and logic but having hard time as Ive been on windows since 92 or something (3.1 anyone?) and its sort of tricky changing without huge effort. If i had to do that with every little peace of software too id never bother and rather pay my bills from my work computer. Your HD-DVD vs Blue Ray debate aint important either beacuse u still get normal DVDs which is good enough for many. People dont want anything new, its already too much out there. Overfloading junk planet. Im running mac right now btw and i just think its slower than windows, im running bootcamp on a mac mini and windows is faster than Mac OSX, no doubt. This was the experience with ubuntu too it was too slow for simple tasks like moving files, playing music and browsing internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Subtle Are you using Linux right now ?

No, Cubase doesn't run on Linux. Cubase isn't your average user program either. :P Though, I'm about to drop Cubase anyways, so who knows.

--

palm:

You mention not wanting to switch to linux and stuff, so why are you trying to use mac and logic? Your going to have to learn new stuff with mac also. As for Ubuntu running slow, don't use the PC from 92 then :P

This "i want things easy" mentality doesn't help software and the future of computing in anyway.

In 2019 your PC will be nothing more than an Xbox with a keyboard and mouse, and all your software will be available Only through an xbox live type of service. You will have absolutly no control over your pc in any way. And because you have to use a proprietary service to get any software, you won't be able to mod or change that machine because of TPM like technology. And don't forget since the software service will be controlled by one company, so will every piece of content on it. Of course you also have to add in every single charge they will tack on for the software you want to download. Imagin trying to be an artist, any hardware you try to attach to this "pc" [if it even allows 3rd party peripherals] will need to be verified by the company before its allowed access to the cpu. There goes any hardware you thought you were going to use in music production, and after that, you will need permission to upload your music [if they allow it] to share with anyone. With this being the case, a few years later they could make it illegal to have a computer not part of this system. They can make up any excuse they want, piracy, terrorism, what ever. The pc will be like the television, you accept what is on it or you don't use it.

This system is already in existence, its called Xbox live. Now just transpose that system on to general pcs.

That is the goal of companies like Trusted Computing, who ARE winning this battle.

___________________
i'm the alchemist without the cyst without a doubt out of the mist
dig out the grout expose the pest to take it out without the rest

they will attest my patients restorations from the best

i'm from the west i'm not an acmeist only the alchemist

Last edited by cronodevir on Apr-12-2009 at 23:17